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Topic: acoustic pedal steel guitar from BMI? |
Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 11:16 am |
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Sounds interesting. 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 1:20 pm I Do
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Mike,
thanks about the inquiry. I will share a little bit about the reason and concept and the development.
When I moved to Tullahoma, Tn. I thought I would sit in with some of the local community groups, unfortunately, they were strictly "Blue Grass." They would not permit me to sit in, even though they used a PA for vocals. Because I had a small amp, it was not permitted. I was told to come back with my dobro. Well, I told the vocalist, he should try singing through some poster board curled up kind of like a megahorn. He didn't like that to much but if your going to be a pure, be pure all the way or make exceptions.
So I started thinking why can't we build an acoustic steel, that "Looks like a steel" and not a dobro but would project like a regular steel, but be accoustic and electric.
I'm aware of the Ped-a-Bro, which is exactly what it says. It looks like what it is. Not that I have anything against it but I'd like to keep it as close to actual looks as possible.
So here is where we are at and here is how it will work.
We will build the guitar basically on the same frame structure as the BMI steels are built on. There will be some internal changes on the corner pieces on the inside to compensate for the acoustic box.
In order to get the proper cubic inches need for sound reproduction acoustically, we will build it on a double frame. It will have the proper porting along with a standard pickup. The first one will be a standard E9 setup. The acoustic box will sit down in the frame and will be independant of the frame other than mounting to the frame.
We have an acoustic engineer work with us on building the box. Even though we have an acoustic engineer working with us on this project we are still incorporating the Zane Beck method of "Trial and Error."
We used ovations smallest guitar as our dimensions for building the box. We have gone through a few and believe we are close.
Were we are now, we are trying to find the right wood to produce the desired sound. It is still a ways out, but we are hoping to debut it in April at the Illinois Steel Guitar Show.
Our goal, is to produce a steel that will be able to meet all venues, look good, sound good, and be affordable so guys like me don't get shot down because I play through an amp.
I hope this sheds some light on the project.
Dan (BMI)
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 1:43 pm I Will
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I will, and thanks for asking about the steel.
Dan
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 6:03 pm
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Well, I give you A+ for effort, and it'll be interesting to see what you come up with. But I predict bluegrass pickers still wont go for it. Saxophone is an acoustic instrument, but they wont let one of those in a bluegrass band.
If you think about it, bluegrass was never a purely acoustic music. It's not really a pre-electric folk genre like Old Time. It's a popular genre invented by Bill Monroe and Earl Scruggs in the time of recordings and radio. It was developed playing acoustic instruments around a microphone. If you don't have a good PA and a dedicated mike for a Dobro, it will be completely drowned out by the banjo, mandolin, fiddle, and flat pickers banging away on booming Martins. Anyone who has ever tried to play Dobro in an unamplified bluegrass jam can attest to that. So your acoustic pedal steel will need to be very loud. Consider having a sound hole on the front. |
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 6:59 pm So True
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David,
You are exactly right and I appreciate the suggestion.
Dan
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 11:55 am
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| David is right. All acoustic instruments are not created equal. Some are far louder than others before a microphone is even applied. I've always liked the idea of an acoustic pedal steal. My guess is that bluegrass bands only want specific instruments. The fact that horns aren't allowed speak to that. |
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Danny James
From:
Summerfield Florida USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 12:07 pm
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They don't allow any electric amplification at the Park in Ocala Florida either.---- It is a great place to get together with a bunch of nice people on a Sunday Afternoon. Ususlly 3 or 4 acoustic jam sessions going on at once in various places there.
By acoustic they mean no electric or battery operated amplification of any kind. It has something to do with agreements and permits I'm told.
I have never seen a sax or clarinet, but on occasion they do play harmonicas and accordians.
I would have liked to have taken my lap steel with my changer in it and a Micro Cube amp., but that did not fly.
Dan what you said about a rolled up cardboard for a megaphone effect may not be such a bad idea for the acoustic pedal steel your designing.
If you can come up with a way to get a megaphone effect and still keep close to the looks and function of a conventional pedal steel guitar. 
Best wishes and keep on thinking. You will come up with something that will work great, I'm betting.  |
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 12:18 pm I agree
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Personally I think pedal steel guitar can add a lot to blue grass music. Not that I have anything against a dobro, in fact I played mine at church Sunday Night with traditional gospel and praise music. Although only the guitar player and myself could hear it, I liked the combination.
The other thing, is being able to practice without having to have an amp.
Let's all hope this comes out the way we intend.
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 12:30 pm
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Dan-
This rule may not be hard and fast, but in general, it seems to me that builders trade sustain for loudness. I hope you don't get hung up on bluegrass to the exclusion of other acoustic music. As a recording musician, I know my best sounding acoustic is not my loudest.
But, your pedal-acoustic does need to be loud enough that the mechanism is not heard.
Good luck, and I am very interested in what you come up with.
-dean- |
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Mike Auldridge
From:
Silver Spring, MD, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 1:05 pm
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Dan,
I've very interested in what you're working on as well.... in fact, I can hardly wait to get my hands on one! Best of luck to you, I think there's a market for such an instrument, with people just waiting for someone to build it.
Mike Auldridge
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www.mikeauldridge.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 1:29 pm
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| Quote: |
| It will have the proper porting along with a standard pickup. |
Most grassers would consider anything with a standard pickup as an "electric instrument". If miking it (just like the voices) won't work, you might sell it to steelers, but it'd be a real hard sell to the acoustic afficianadoes of traditional bluegrass. I know for a fact they're pretty hard-liners, and most of them don't even consider Alison Krauss as a "real bluegrass" act!  |
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 1:40 pm I'm with you on that
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Mike,
I understand. I know it's different, but if they can build a cigar box guitar, surely we can accomplish this with some rate of success. The only thing that I'm concerned about is getting an acoustic sound that will be acceptable to steel players. If we can't get a unique sound that is acceptable I don't know how successful it will be. Even with the best science some times it's hit or miss. You just keep swinging until you make a hit.
Do you guys have any suggestions as to what type of wood you would prefer these bodies be made of?
We are open to suggestions and ideas, we are going in unchartered territory so all suggestions are welcomed.
Dan (BMI)
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Wally Davis
From:
Belleville, Illinois, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 1:50 pm
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| I too look forward to this with great interest. There has been a tremendous void in the market for a guitar of this design. Please keep us updated of your developments Dan and thank you for working on making this a reality. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 2:04 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It will have the proper porting along with a standard pickup. |
Most grassers would consider anything with a standard pickup as an "electric instrument". If miking it (just like the voices) won't work, you might sell it to steelers, but it'd be a real hard sell to the acoustic afficianadoes of traditional bluegrass. I know for a fact they're pretty hard-liners, and most of them don't even consider Alison Krauss as a "real bluegrass" act! |
Another quote, although I don't know who said it. "If Earl Scruggs didn't play it, it's wrong."
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 2:07 pm
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You know, we've talked about the rise in interest in the steel among singer/songwriters who often play acoustic guitars. Perhaps this instrument will find a home among those people.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 2:28 pm Re: I'm with you on that
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| Dan Burnham wrote: |
Do you guys have any suggestions as to what type of wood you would prefer these bodies be made of?
We are open to suggestions and ideas, we are going in unchartered territory so all suggestions are welcomed.
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Spruce, Ceder, or mahogany for the soundboard, maple, mahogany or rosewood for the back and sides.
Would it be too expensive to use carbon fiber like the Millennium and growing number of acoustic instruments?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Mike Spaeth
From:
Springdale, Arkansas
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 5:38 pm re
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| I believe that without a volume pedal in the mix the sound will not be able to sustain long enough to achieve the "pedal steel" sound. I know the 1-4 chord change might be strong enough to come through but other changes are less obvious without the swell of a volume pedal.I think you might then might just end up sounding like an acoustic lap. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 13 Sep 2007 6:50 pm
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I'm not sure why you have rejected the pedabro idea. If you look at the history of Hawaiian steel guitar, it was first played on regular guitars. The volume was inadequate, and that was the inspiration for the first resonator guitars. They sacrificed a little sustain for more volume. The spider bridge models had a sweeter sound with a little more sustain, but bottleneck blues players preferred the biscuit bridge models for more volume, again sacrificing some sustain.
For both Dobro (played lap style) and the Pedabro, the fact that the resonator faces the ceiling (or the sky) is a serious problem in terms of projecting the volume to listeners. If I were doing this, I'd try to figure a way to have the resonator at say a 45 degree angle facing the front. The bridge would have to be a strange long thing rising out of the resonator at a 45 degree angle, and would have to be long enough to get the strings up higher than the top edge of the angled resonator. But the extended bridge of a tricone can transfer the string vibration out to the three cones, so it does seem possible for a long bridge to work. Of course you could also do something like that with an angled wood top and body.
Having rollers on the bridge would deaden the sound with too much mass and the lack of solidity. If you could have the string ball ends catch on the bridge, you wouldn't need rollers (keyless pedal steels don't need rollers). Then you would have to have the changer at the other end along with the tuners. Is that possible?
Lots of problems to solve. |
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Dan Burnham
From:
Greenfield, Tennessee
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Posted 14 Sep 2007 5:50 am For Sure
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For Sure there are many problems to solve. The reason for choosing not the pedalbro route was because of the looks. Like I said I'm not "dissing" it by no means. I'm wanting something that looks very close to what we consider a pedal steel to look like.
Who knows we may have to scrape current design patterns and change if the acoustics are not what they should be.
Once we have one of these done we will have it out for players to try and make suggestions.
Thanks for all the suggestions for wood and etc., I do appreciate it and we will keep you guys up to speed as the project develops.
Dan
_________________
BMI S12 Zane Beck's Tuning
www.danburnham.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 14 Sep 2007 8:15 am
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| Quote: |
| Another quote, although I don't know who said it. "If Earl Scruggs didn't play it, it's wrong." |
Funny, among the "old-school" banjo players, I always preferred Carl Sauceman. 'Course, Walter Hensley weren't no slouch, either!  (I had the pleasure of watching him live many, many times.) |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 14 Sep 2007 11:20 am Re: I Do
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| Dan Burnham wrote: |
| ...We used Ovation's smallest guitar as our dimensions for building the box... |
I've always thought an Ovation would make a good basis for a resonator guitar. Maybe you could use the same plastic on your body cavity. Do you intend to use a resonator or not ? |
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