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Topic: Push/Pull Ideas... |
Duane Reese
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Posted 3 Sep 2007 10:28 pm |
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Here's and idea I came up with, to try and eliminate the pedal slack on a push/pull. It's one of a couple of ideas for this I've had kicking around...
Yeah I know, the drawing sucks but I just did it in Microsoft Paint tonight just to give you an idea. If I had AutoCAD it would've looked great... Anyway, the idea is fairly simple really. When you look at how a Fingertip Sho-Bud works, you can see that it has a simple system where you have the finger hinged to a pivoting bar that raises and lowers, depending on which side you pull on, and the degree of raise and lower is set by a rod with knurled nuts on it that's attached to the finger, and the “zero” position (not raised or lowered) is set by the resting position of the pivoting bar. A push/pull is sort of like this too, in that the settings are done with screws, and the positions of hardware resting on the body. Both designs set the raise/lower/zero with the changer.
So I said to myself: why can't you just somehow take that pivoting bar that you find in a Fingertip Sho-Bud, flip it upside-down, and throw it in a push/pull? That's what you see in the drawing, basically. If this worked, you'd get the body vibrational transfer advantages of a p/p, and get rid of the pedal slack... Maybe. The reason you have that “low tension” spring there is just to keep the pivot bar from flopping off the pivot when you aren't raising, so you wouldn't want something strong enough to hamper motion.
Now since you'd increase mechanical advantage on the raise by doing this, I thought this would be a good time to display how you'd make the raise action easier, with a raise assist spring, and how you'd install it. I didn't come up with the idea either – that credit goes to p/p maverick Richard Burton. He has shown us on the forum before how this works, by attaching the other end of a raise assist spring to the lower rod so it wouldn't keep the finger from moving back – the only difference between my drawing and his was that he had his raise assist attached to a pull rod instead of the finger itself, but the idea is the same basically.
Now of course this is a very crude illustration of the idea, and the logistics would have to be refined quite a bit, but even if this idea is a plain old bad one, hopefully me putting it up on the forum will maybe give someone a better idea, or someone else will take this picture and apply their own ideas, or whatever. I really think the raise-assist idea is one that ought to be on ever Emmons. Richard Burton says his pedal action is smoother than any Emmons you'll ever play, and why wouldn't it be? It makes perfect sense.
One thing that looks like it might need some working out would be the apparent fact that if you had the lower engaged, and hit the raise on the same string, it'd snap the pivot bar back pretty rapidly. How rapidly, and would it be that big of a deal? Again, that's something that'd have to be worked out and figured out.
I also had an idea of inserting, into the push and pull rods, disengaging slip joints and a system of triggers that would only let the push or the pull be engaged one at at time, but I'll draw that one another time...
INPUT PLEASE! |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 3 Sep 2007 10:42 pm
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Hmm.. I just thought of something: you'd have to make sure you'd win the balancing game between how hard it is to move the raise finger, and how hard it is to move the "low tension spring, and all the vectors involved because you might wind up just pulling that low tension spring up instead of raising.
Anyone want to tackle that? Ideas? That's what this thread is all about...
Perhaps you could put a little mechanism on the pivot bar that would lock the top when a pull rod yanks on it? |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 4 Sep 2007 4:44 pm
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| Does this idea mean that you wouldn't have to leave the slack on a raise, that is on a string that also lowers? eg. the "C" pedal raise?...Jerry |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 4 Sep 2007 5:29 pm
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That's the hope, yes. So, on strings that don't both raise and pull, you would just have hooked up in the usual fashion.
As far as the raise-assist spring goes (which is basically an idea independent of the other), if want that on a string that raises and lowers, you'd need to attach one end to the finger and the other to an anchor attached to the push rod. If for other strings that only raise, you'd just need to hook the other end of the spring to something, like maybe the hole you would had to have drilled in the plate that suspends the return springs.
In my picture, I show the raise assist spring hooking to a hole on the finger, but in hind sight, it would be better to drill a hole and put in a little eye bolt. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 4 Sep 2007 9:42 pm
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Duane,
I like your idea, the principle looks OK, but, as you say in your second post, balancing the springs might be a problem.
I think that when the low tension spring is strong enough to hold the pivot bar in position during a raise, it will be too strong during a lower, and the raise finger will not lower. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2007 10:10 am
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The only slack I have in my Emmons is on the knee levers that lower and raise the E's and it is very little. I did away with the little wires that go to the pulling fingers and put in solid rods just like an all pull. I used a smaller rod so it would go thru the holes in the changer. It does away with the mushy feel that alot of P/P's have, makes the pull much more positive and can be set to do away with the slack.
Wish I knew how to post a picture to show how mine is done. It works very well even though it may take away the value of the guitar by not being orginal but if you're going to play it, who cares.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 5 Sep 2007 11:03 am
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| Quote: |
| Perhaps you could put a little mechanism on the pivot bar that would lock the top when a pull rod yanks on it? |
It might be better to use a heavier spring on the pivot bar (to hold it in position whilst raising), and pull the bar away from the top stop when lowering, using a bell crank on the lowering cross shaft. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Sep 2007 5:21 pm
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| What about the slack you have to have in All Pull guitars? |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 1:40 pm
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Well, it's naturally quite a bit less, but I know you'll agree that the added slack on a p/p is worth it, if you like that Emmons sound. I think it is.
It would just be interesting to see if someone can take this idea of engineering out the higher level of p/p slack, whether it be the "inverted fingertip" idea I came up with or another idea someone puts on here, and run with it...
I'll tell you, if it's all about minimizing slack, I've found that the mechanism on a Blanton has perhaps the most ability to get there of any (in the non-cable world) I've seen.
Aside from all this "slack" stuff, what is your opinion of that possible raise-assist addition, Bobbe?
| Quote: |
| It might be better to use a heavier spring on the pivot bar (to hold it in position whilst raising), and pull the bar away from the top stop when lowering, using a bell crank on the lowering cross shaft. |
That would work, although you'd have quite a few rods by the time you got done, going in many directions. One thing is that it would have to be timed just right in order to leave just enough slack in the linkage between the pivot bar and the raise finger to keep the raise finger from getting pulled away from the lowering finger, and keep the bar from falling off the pivot.
Here's what I thought up that apparently would do the same thing, but from the other side... After installing a heavier pivot bar spring, you could have a center-fulcrum linkage connecting the push rod above to the top of the pivot bar, that would use the push rod motion to help defeat the pivot bar's spring. Again, the leverage would have to be exact in order for this to work, and in both cases, it might make the lower so stiff it might not worth it because you are now defeating two stiff springs to lower.
Speaking of your idea to use a pull rod on the top of the pivot bar, I had a temptation to want to just use that as the means to lower, eliminate the push rod entirely, and make the linkage between pivot bar and raise finger push the finger down. You'd then be nearly to an all-pull with positive stops in the changer. The problem with that is that it would just lift the pivot bar right off the pivot, and then you'd need a spring at the pivot to hold that down, and now you have an even bigger mess... For that matter, it would be like taking a standard all-pull changer finger set and putting it in there upside-down, and expecting it to push on the raise finger (which would never work because those fingers depend on the string tension to suck it away - they can't "push"). You'd have to get rid of the p/p lowering finger and return spring, and then you'd have an upside-down all pull anyway.
It sure is better to disembowel this guitars on paper than in real life, eh? |
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Wayne Baker
From:
Altus Oklahoma
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 5:07 pm Slack
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Although a P/P steel sounds great, the tuning is a pain... If you consider the Emmons LegrandeII, you get a steel that has a professional sound, a history of quality and is an easy playing and tuning steel guitar.
Wayne Baker
Tuttle Ok's Most Handsome Steel Guitarist |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 6:25 pm
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A p/p will never be like a LeGrand or most any modern all-pull as far as the tuning procedure itself goes, but actually a p/p is quite easy to tune once you have it setup correctly, and know the copedent well. To be honest, I don't think any of the all-pulls I've ever had were quite as stable as the p/p tuning-wise. They all have required more frequent adjustment. Sho-Bud barrel tuners are pretty darn robust too, but of all the guitars I've ever owned, I've had to spend the least time tuning my p/p... Before I learned how to set it up right, I could not get it in tune.
The p/p will always be what it is to a degree, but this thread is all about improving that degree, if possible. If not, then it's still guitar, and I'll still play it. |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 6 Sep 2007 9:08 pm
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| Push-Pulls can be a pain if the player is constantly changing his copedent (this is where modern all-pulls are in their element), but once the copedent is fixed, and the steel correctly set up, they are about the easiest guitars on the planet to tune. |
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James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 3:03 am
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I have to agree with Duane on this one ....Once properly set up the P/P is really very easy to keep in tune....I've owned various pedal steels over the years, and when it comes to tuning stability , ANY of the P/P's I've owned over the years have been the most stable ...Set it, and forget it !!...
I will also agree that the P/P is a bear to change copedants on ...Again, it may be easy to those who have worked on them over the years ... I really have to sit and stare a lot when working on a P/P ...It's a bit different , and harder to wrap my head around than an all pull setup ... |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 9 Sep 2007 6:55 am
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Henry how do you connect the small rod going throught the changer to the larger rod going to the cross rod bell crank on each pedal?
Larry Behm |
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Wade Branch
From:
Weatherford, Texas, USA
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 5:42 am
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| Henry,Iam also intersted in seeing what you've done underneath your Emmons.If you will email me some pics ,I will post them for you. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 12:03 pm
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Larry, I'm not sure I understand your question correctly but I just connected the smaller rods directly to the bell crank just like the other rods. I found some smaller connecters through an airplane hobbie shop and used them.
Wade, I'll send you some picture that you can post for me. My guitar is at the Opry where I play so it might be a day or 2.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 10 Sep 2007 1:48 pm
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OK,here’s one I came up with a while back. To make a working prototype, I installed this on a gutted PP and it seems to work fine. I don’t have it on a working guitar…maybe one of you guys can pick up the ball.
Here’s the action:
Pedal 3
E/F# bellcrank rotates clockwise pulling on the floating bellcrank at point B.
Floating bellcrank rotates around swivel A because of fixed rod running between E/Eb bellcrank and point A on the floating swivel.
Lever E/Eb
E/Eb lever rotates clockwise and pushes lower finger. At the same time, this rotation allows floating bellcrank to rotate around point B. This rotation of the floating bellcrank will give enough slack in the pull rods to allow for the lowering of the raise finger. |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 10:26 am
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Hmm... That's an idea. It's like Richard's idea except that you have elimitated the spring pivot bar spring, thereby making the rod that goes between point "A" and the "E ~ Eb" bellcrank serve as a push rod instead of a pull rod. It wouldn't be raise-priority after that, but heck - it might be the best idea I've seen yet.
And you say you have tried this before? |
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 12 Sep 2007 2:09 pm
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Hadn’t thought about the loss of raise priority…good point.
I do have these changes set up on one of my push-pulls…only for testing. There are no other rods connected on this guitar. The changes are also tuned to correct pitch.
Initially, didn’t know if pushing pedal 3 would ultimately exert too much pressure on the lowering finger spring. This spring seems to be adjusted normally on my guitar and the E/F# raise has no effect on the lowering finger at all.
The other concern would be the location of point B on the floating crank. It was unclear at first if the point B location would allow enough slack…given the proper rotation of E/Eb crank but a center location seems to work about right. You could always shift that hole in either direction if needed to improve leverage or increase slack. |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Sep 2007 12:16 pm
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Here is yet another take on this issue. It consists of a bellcrank pivoting on a bracket attached directly to the lower finger. The raise becomes a push rather than a pull in this scenario but because of this the slack is eliminated (or so it seems to me after a few sleepless nights!).
Note that you would have to be clever about routing the lower push rod by bending or offsetting it in some way.
Also you would need more spring for the lower return but it seems to me you could get enough. Instead of enough spring to return, say one full tone to pitch you would need enough for maybe two full tones to allow for a whole tone raise since the raise push rod is pushing on the lower finger.
I have been obsessing on this a little too much lately for whatever reason so I’m not quite sure if I’m seeing this exactly right but it does seem to me like it would work. What do you think?
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Jerry Jones
From:
Franklin, Tenn.
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Posted 16 Sep 2007 6:17 pm
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Gary ~ This is a very creative idea.. The experience I had with my example above is that the lowering spring always has enough tension to hold against the raise finger action…even with the added mechanical advantage present in the floating bellcrank.
One idea you might consider for some cases is reversing the pushrod and the pull wire on your pivot crank. This should reduce the length of your stroke. Normally, the E/F# change on pedal 3 would need to be in the 1st wire hole (from the axle) so it times better with the 5th string pull. |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 16 Sep 2007 6:23 pm
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Wow - that'd be possibly the first "all-push" ever! I think the biggest concern would be the pushing of the lower finger when the raise happens, but as Jerry put it, the difference in the force required might take care of this, and you can adjust those springs anyhow. If the difference still needed to be widened, perhaps one could also make it easier to raise by adding the "Burton" raise-assist.
This is good though - this thread is starting to turn into what I hoped it would: an innovative think-tank, of sorts.
Additional: You might even be able to get rid of the compression spring that you have to have between the bellcrank and collar if the difference in force wasn't too big, because as soon as it was done raising, the shaft could continue moving a little by moving the lower finger, but you'd then want to attach the lowering push rod to the finger so it wouldn't fall out.
You know what else an all-push would do? It'd make it lower-priority, and the key there lies in point "!" in the diagram. |
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Gary Cosden
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2007 3:08 pm
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| Thanks for your comments guys. Jerry - you are absolutely correct about timing the pulls. I am thinking about building a prototype for one string on my '75 Emmons. I was thinking of either having multiple holes to locate the raise collar on the pivot crank or simply figuring the length of pull I need and make the pivot crank specific for that pull. If I can get it to work well enough I might even finally add the Franklin pedal in which case I would need five of these widgets and have the world's only push-push-pull guitar. I happen to have all the changer fingers from an early 70's Emmons with almost no wear on them that I have been saving for a rainy day so if it all goes "pear shape" in the end at least I will be able to go back to stock with no real harm done. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2016 6:33 pm
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I've been so intrigued with the Push Pull system that I found this thread during a search.
Whatever came of the various ideas? Can we revive this discussion and see what things have evolved since?
_________________
RETIRED
Former steel guitarist for Tracy Byrd & The Byrd Dawgs, Mark Chesnut & The New South Band, Mark Nesler & Texas Tradition, Wayne Toups & ZydeCajun, Belton Richard & The Musical Aces
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Duane Reese
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Posted 30 Apr 2016 7:49 pm
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Man, this is quite a thread resurrection — almost a decade!
By the way: the idea I posted wouldn't really work, and is probably not worth seeing again.  |
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