"Common Courtesy Rule"

Ken Crisp · From: North Carolina

Should there be a "Common Courtesy Rule" in place for prospective buyers ?

When Sellers post a product for sale and list a price, should the first prospective buyer/member be given ample time to correspond with the Seller, without the interference of other members posting immediate "Cash/Trade Offers" or "Opinions" with regard to the product for sale" in following post/replies, or via email or telephone ?

Then, if negotiations fail with the first prospective buyer/member, the Seller communicates with the [Next-In-Line]or "Second" prospective buyer/member, so on and so forth until the product is "Sold".
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Michael Hardee · Posted 22 Aug 2007 2:50 pm

Trying to impose restrictions on sellers strikes me as a good way to encourage sellers to use Ebay first, where buyers have obligations also.

It's the seller's guitar, he has the right to sell, not sell, accept a higher price, whatever. If you don't like the way the seller conducts business, don't deal with him in the future.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

A good point, and whilst courtesy is the subject, why the large bold text ?

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

IMO, this belongs in "Forum Feedback", not in "Buy/Sell". We already had this run around the mulberry bush back in March, see here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=105567

A "rule" is a "law". Are you not really asking if b0b should make a "rule" that prohibits anybody but the first responder from making an offer on something for sale, and prohibits the seller from acting on it? If so, that is not what your poll asks. There's nothing stopping anybody from "not interfering" now.

If a flurry of email or post offers rapidly come in on a buy/sell item, I think sellers have every right to make the deal they think is best for them. In addition to price, there are a lot of other considerations in a deal. Suppose the seller has a chance to sell the guitar without shipping to one buyer, and has to ship across the country to another? Or suppose a seller got a bad feeling - for whatever reason - that a prospective buyer was not trustworthy? Your proposed rule is completely unmanageable, IMHO. A seller should not feel pressure to accept a deal just because you say so. A real meeting of the minds involves both parties agreeing and being OK with it.

The real question I have is - why do you want to micromanage how sellers and buyers operate on the forum? As long as sellers honestly and accurately describe, and carefully and quickly pack and ship their items, and buyers quickly send money or a trade item, all without scamming, what business is it of yours to tell any of us how we should interact with this process, provided we have a bona fide stake in the outcome, and are not just making comments from the gallery?

BTW - the only sale-thread rule I know about is that non-actors in a transaction are not supposed to make off-topic remarks on a seller's thread. I acknowledge my off-topic comments in the thread that gave rise to this one, but they were purely in reaction to what I took as hostile comments from the gallery, directed at the seller in that thread.

Ron ! · Posted 22 Aug 2007 4:09 pm

First of all........I think that when a seller offers a guitar below value....it is "OUR" duty to tell that forum member about it.Whether it was offered by mistake or by fault.
Putting up a poll in the "For Sale Section"(it does not even belong in this section to begin with)shows me there is little respect.
Maybe I get flamed over my comment here...but I really don't care right now.
It would be the same like selling a "Rolls" for 25-G's.Far and far below value.

Like Dave said before,this topic has been discussed many many times over the years.

Basically what it comes down to is that we steelers are one big family and we stand up for each other.We love the music and we love our instruments.We love to buy sell or trade.But we do not want to see one of our family members get burned.
A Mullen U12 for $1200 is far........far....... below value.
And let's face it.That is what started this poll.

Let us treat each other with respect and not like enemies.

Ron

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

So that means you'd rather interfere with another Forumite's opportunity to get a great deal, right? Wink

Which Forumite do you support? Whoa!

I think it's better to just stay out of the way if you don't have a dog in the hunt (am I mixing my metaphors?)

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

Just an observation, but "worth" means different things to different forum members. Sure, a Mullen U12 is worth more than $1,200 in the marketplace. But I wouldn't even buy it for $1,000, because I don't have an interest in it, due to my preference for lacquer S10's. I saw the original deal a few days ago, and thought to myself that it was pretty low for the steel, but it would have to be very low for me to buy it, and then I'd probably just re-sell it to make a profit. But someone here who's on a budget for a U12 might have had a chance to get a nice guitar for a good price, and love it and play it to death. So if the transaction really has nothing to do with me, I really don't have a right to say much besides something positive, if I feel that way about the guitar itself.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Jim - if I don't have a dog in the hunt, I am also reluctant to get into the fray. But I might possibly if I had concrete knowledge that something was so egregiously underpriced that I thought the seller had no clue as to the value and was being taken advantage of. I wouldn't attempt to tell someone whether they should do this or not, and I don't think the forum should get into policing this either. BTW, I didn't alert this seller.

Another point is that some prospective buyers here are non-forum members who troll for deals, while sellers are generally forum members. I'm not against non forum-members here, but I know where I think our first priority should lie - with our own members.

The part that got me into this was the scolding this Mullen seller got for accepting a higher offer than he initially asked for. I don't think it's right. Further, who has the right to tell other prospective buyers that they have no right to make a higher offer on a buy/sell forum like this? b0b has said repeatedly that sellers own their for-sale thread. Sellers are the ones generally expected to make donations resulting from the sale.

What is being suggested here is that the forum should somehow enforce squatter's rights on a for-sale item at a price upper-bounded by the initial asking price for the first person to contact the seller, and force processing in first-come first-served order, regardless of what the seller wants to do. I don't agree. We have wrung our hands repeatedly about the need for buyers and sellers to be very cautious in making long-distance deals like this - I agree. It would therefore be a grave mistake for the forum or its members to interfere with this and start legislating in any way who sellers should sell to. A fair deal requires both parties to have a real meeting of the minds.

The best market is an open market, where people are free to communicate with each other and buy and sell under terms that both sides agree to, after the facts and terms are aired as thoroughly as possible. Even though I think first-come first-served works best in many if not most situations, any legislation of that would be completely in the wrong direction. All IMHO, of course.

Fred Shannon · From: Rocking "S" Ranch, Comancheria, Texas, R.I.P.

If my dog's not barking, I'm not either. You buy something for what it's worth to you, one sells something for what it's worth to them. If the cat's crooked and trying to scam the system, an email is the proper way to go IMO. Lots of feelings will be hurt with a "rule", which, in reality can't be enforced. Oh Well

Phred
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Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Well...

Around these parts,,, minding your own business is the common courtesy.

If a comment would be helpful in some way, do it privately, not publicly.

David Doggett · Posted 22 Aug 2007 9:13 pm

I am in general agreement with Dave M. on this. The so called "common courtesy rule" seems to me more like a "gotcha" rule that would penalize naive and inexperienced sellers and make things a little too easy for the pro retailers who spend a lot of time watching for steals on steels. Those are the guys most likely to snatch up too-low items. And then dust them off and offer them back to Forum buyers at a much higher price. Mind you, I think the pro buyers have every freedom and right to play their game of buy low/sell high. But I don't think we should be setting up "rules" that make naive sellers unwitting prey to that game.

The fact is that b0b offers the buy/sell sections as a sort of free-for-all with no rules, including no first-come-first-served rule. A seller can use it as an auction site, or as a fixed-price/first-come-first-served deal, or as simply a place to put out a feeler and open up negotiations with prospective buyers to see what develops. Ideally a seller would state what the situation is up front. But some sellers, especially the most inexperienced ones, simply don't think of doing that. They simply don't realize that stating a price without thinking to say "or best offer" might set up a dilema. It doesn't seem like they should be punished with a "gotcha" rule that prevents them from correcting their honest mistake.

Given that there are no rules to prevent this dilema, maybe there could be a "sticky note" in the buy/sell sections with some guidelines suggesting that the seller choose which situation they want and that reminds them to state the situation clearly up front.

Also, I think the implied unethical nature of eBay type auctions is misplaced. An auction is a perfectly reasonable and ethical way to carry out a sale, as long as there are appropriate rules to keep the process fair and orderly, which eBay has. There is actually more a danger of an auction going awry here on the Forum where there are no rules or ratings, etc.

Probably buyers should consider all for-sale items as feelers for negotiations that could potentially turn into an unorganized auction. Again, some buyers, especially the least experienced ones, might not realize that, so maybe a "sticky note" appearing on all for-sale threads would be in order.

But there would seem to be no reason to set up "rules" that require a seller to act like a store with a fixed and unalterable advertised price that is guaranteed to the first person lucky enough to see the post. Most sellers are not in business and advertising. They are simply a fellow Forumite and steeler trying to get a good deal for their stuff. Nor should the unwitting seller be required to treat his suggested price as if it were the "buy it now" price on ebay. It is simply his first suggested price to test the waters, and he should be free to adjust it as the situation develops, and buyers should be aware of that. If somebody needs to sell something quick, and wants to state a low price and go with the first buyer, fine. But an inexperienced seller should not be locked into an unsuspected low price against their will when the realistic higher bids start coming in.

Bottom line, nobody should be playing "gotcha" here. Everything should be treated as an ongoing negotiation until the deal is closed.

Jerry H. Moore · From: Newnan, GA, USA

The first prospective buyer should be given the amount of time that you the seller agrees upon. You list it and you describe it and you sell it. Your rules. If it sounds crooked then nobody here will touch it. If it's a deal it's gone! Make it plain is what I say. If you want it let's get it. If you don't then move over. It's not business-like to tie up a sale just deciding what to do when there's a buyer ready to make the deal.
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Cartwright Thompson · Posted 23 Aug 2007 8:50 am

Call me old fashioned but I don't like to see people taken advantage of. If I see an instrument listed well under fair market value, I will PM the seller to suggest that they rethink their asking price. I think that first come first served is a fair policy but let's face it, sellers can do whatever they want and so can buyers. I also think this thread doesn't belong here. Maybe bOb can set-up a "cry babies" page...

Ken Crisp · From: North Carolina

Alan Kirk · From: Scotia, CA, USA

When I'm selling on the Forum, I use the First Come, First Serve method--whoever sends me an email first has first dibs. Those after that are taken in order. Seems fair to me.
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Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Way back at the top of this thread, in the big bold print, is the point being made that the first prospective buyer should have the ability to tie up a sale until he is through corresponding with the seller?

Absolutely not.

I believe the seller should be able to select a simple non-contingent sale if he so chooses, even if the contingencies are simply answering questions.

Frankly, I think a courteous buyer wanting to ask the seller questions or wait for pictures would step aside if another buyer came forward with a full cash no contingencies offer.

Chris

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Well, I've always thought that's the way it worked, too, Chris...the first person to commit to make the purchase got it, not the first one to ask a question.

What started all this was a sale that was posted as a simple sale for a set price, but quickly changed, without any disclosure, and turned into an auction...which was very confusing. Does that seem like the kind of thing we want to encourage here? I expect the seller to tell me whether I have to place a bid on the item, or can simply make the purchase at the listed price, or if trades will be considered. If the seller wants to change anything about the sale, that's fine, but he should tell everybody, up front, what's going on...so things can be fair for all the interested parties.

Being forthright about the item goes without saying, but that should apply to the method, or type, of sale also, IMHO.
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Mike

Ken Crisp · From: North Carolina

Mike makes an excellent point about the sale changing to an auction ,without notice. Fact is, it should haven't changed after it was installed.

With regards to certain members contacting a seller from getting burned or to notify the seller the product for sale is under priced, when members have already lined up and conveyed an interest to purchase;

In Scott's "for sale" post, you'll notice he mentioned he had found an Emmons S12. [Appears] to be the reason for the Mullen U12 sale price lower than usual. I can't speak for Scott, however with just a little deductive reasoning, one can make this assumption with confidence.

Jim Kennedy · From: Brentwood California, USA

What if the buy sell areas were available to forum members only? If you have to log in to check out the ads, that might discourage those profiteers on "the hunt" for a great deal. This would allow forum members a good chance at a good deal first. If it doesn't sell here, put it on the open market.

Ken Crisp · From: North Carolina

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

Plus it might sell more memberships!!

(And prevent the occasional offer from a Nigerian buyer who wants to pay with a $125,000 bank check and have you send back the change...)

Ken Crisp · From: North Carolina

Russ Tkac · Posted 23 Aug 2007 2:32 pm

<<IMV it's very suspicious behavior, forum members contacting the seller after several members posts are lined up with interest to purchase the product.>>

In the Mullen for sale thread I had emailed the seller for pictures before any posts were entered. I just didn't put email sent in a reply. I was not the first to contact the seller. I didn't buy the steel.

The for sale section is not set up to require a post to establish an order for buying.

I had a steel posted a while ago and had a first forum contact who asked me if my price was firm and then gave me quite a few reasons why it was over priced (not as many KLs, others had sold for less. etc). The second forum member asked if I would take paypal. I said yes and the deal was done. The first forum member was surprised it was sold so fast and wondered why I didn't contact them back?

It takes two to make a deal and we both have to feel comfortable about it.

We are all going to miss a deal now and then. For the most part it works fine. Very Happy

Russ

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 23 Aug 2007 4:03 pm

If it ain't broke...

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

What Basil said.

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