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Topic: Legal Question? |
Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 29 Jul 2007 6:14 pm |
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There is a guy who comes up here "Anchorage Alaska" from Lowell Mass.every summer,he is a Lawyer who sings a few Muddy Waters,and Jimmy Reed songs.I have a soul/blues band that I've played with part time for about 6years...anyway last year he dropped off some CD's with a friend of mine for everyone in the band .To our surprise there were two songs that we played on ,a live recording from the mixing board that I assume our former sound clown had given him.my question is we never gave anyone permission to put out this performance,and this guy is selling them at some summer festivals,Should I ask for money for the band?break an arm?I don't think that he will ever sell enough of them to make taking him to court worthwhile.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Carol Johnson
From:
Califonia, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2007 6:38 pm
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| Stu, that amounts to stealing someone else's ideas and profiting from them, and that is bad. Maybe this guy doesn't know your band laid down the tracks...I would confront him with this and get his reaction. If he is selling them, then you and your band are entitled to be financially compensated. A last resort might be going to small claims court, where rules are a bit relaxed and a judge will listen to arguments not necessarily supported by copyright infringement legislation... Good luck and please keep us informed. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 29 Jul 2007 6:52 pm
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Carol,It is a recording of him sitting in with our band live,I probably didn't make that clear..Thanks for the info,Take Care,Stu
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Marlin Smoot
From:
Kansas
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Posted 29 Jul 2007 9:04 pm
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Are the songs under your copyright?
If so, they are protected and you are entitled payment through your publisher.
If the songs are not yours and only you as a musician performing someone elses songs, there's not much you can do. You could hire a lawyer and have the person send him a letter for some type of payment or a C&D to stop the selling until some payment can be made to you for the 'studio' work you did.
Of course, it may cost you more than you'll get back in return. You may also have to show/prove you make money from this type of work (studio musician) to show you've been harmed in the way of having been deprived of loss income.
However, you did not have an agrement with him in advance so there's a lot of gray area. Not knowing what field is his practice, he may already know his performance rights.
If he (the lawyer) did not get permission or pay for the rights at the time of pressing the CD's - he has a legal copyright problem on the cover songs.
You can contact the publishing company's the songs are under and see if he has the legal right to sell his project - if he does not, you can send a copy of the CD to the publishers and they could collect their interest from the project.
He should at least credit the musicians playing on the CD in print on the inside cover, that is... if you are proud of the work you did on the 'project'
If he is indeed selling the project, you can approach him and simply ask him for payment and see what develops. It's a fair question. With him being a lawyer and a musician, you can only hope he'll understand your point of view. I would approach him in a non threating way. |
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Carol Johnson
From:
Califonia, USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2007 11:43 pm
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Stu, as a lawyer this guy should know better. My guess is maybe he hasn't really thought about what he is doing, or it never occurred to him he was doing anything wrong. I think you should approach him and explain how you feel and why. Hopefully he will just stop... If he has been sitting in with the band over the years, I don't think he will want to jeopardize that for the future. But he needs to understand that what he is doing does not set well with you and your band. Good luck with this...  |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 2:09 am
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You need to clarify..
Are they YOUR songs or HIS ? Somebody elses ?
Who wrote the songs ?
If they are his there is no recourse. If they are YOURS you may want to just talk to him about it and tell him that next time he should mention to you that he is using your songs and understand the logistics of it all, and yes, if there are sales maybe a solution with a few $$$, actually a few CENTS per sale.
If they are songs that others wrote we have a whole new can of worms.
Did you play lots of other people songs that night ? or ever record a set of other peoples songs ?
The use of copyrighted MUSIC is very interesting, we see tabs all over the forum, we post songs all the time of our playing, our bands etc...and we never actually think about or acknowledge the copyright thing. Yes, we are well under the umbrella of the copyright song Police but we are still doing it.
Now....
You said the guy is Selling the CD's at Festivals, if they are NOT his songs or yours thats a problem between him and the writer/publisher. If you are playing on them I wouldn't tell anyone. It's an illegal CD and you don't want any part of it or your name on it . If you acccept money for playing the songs on a CD being sold you are in the same illegal position as the guy selling them.
Performers on records get paid for the session and have no part of overall sales . They do not own the Music, the licks, the phrases etc..they were paid to play them. There is no "Pay per Lick" meter...
I think the biggest issue you have is the sound guy giving away copies of recordings from the board.
thats a NO NO in any situation. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 5:39 am
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| Quote: |
| Performers on records get paid for the session and have no part of overall sales . They do not own the Music, the licks, the phrases etc..they were paid to play them. There is no "Pay per Lick" meter... |
Tony, I think you are right on about this, except for the paragraph quoted above, which doesn't appear to apply in this case. As I understand it, this was a band's live performance; it's not like he was the featured artist and they were sidemen he hired for the session... But you're right that, if he ain't payin' royalties on the songs, you guys probably don't want to be involved in the deal at all. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 5:45 am
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Jim you are correct , I was speaking in generic terms rather than to the issue at hand here.
tp |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 11:47 am
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The songs are Muddy Waters "Hoochie Coochie Man",and Jimmy Reed's "You Got Me Runnin" this was at a gig live,and he sat in with our band for a few songs,and somehow got a live of the mixing board recording and then had CD's made.As far as us playing other peoples songs live the clubs in Anchorage pay a large fee every year to ASCAP&BMI for royalties so the live bands can perform them..no problem there.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 11:48 am
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The songs are Muddy Waters "Hoochie Coochie Man",and Jimmy Reed's "You Got Me Runnin" this was at a gig live,and he sat in with our band for a few songs,and somehow got a live of the mixing board recording and then had CD's made.As far as us playing other peoples songs live the clubs in Anchorage pay a large fee every year to ASCAP&BMI for royalties so the live bands can perform them..no problem there.
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 11:49 am
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Whooops!double post 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 1:50 pm
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Stu I was referring to recording the live performances, which we all do by the way.
In this scenario you are not entitled to royalties for just playing the music.
Selling music that is not licensed is not a good road to go down especially given where the guy is selling the CD's.
ya never know...
tp |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Jul 2007 6:17 pm
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Musicians backing up a singer, live or not, usually don't get royalties unless arrangements have been made beforehand with the singer/writer. If you're not the writer, the main singer, or the producer, you're out of the R&R (royalty and residual) loop.
| Quote: |
| Should I ask for money for the band? |
Unless those CD's are selling up in the thousands (and I seriously doubt that), you wouldn't make any money anyhow.
Forget trying to make a buck, and just enjoy all this the free publicity and exposure you're getting! |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 31 Jul 2007 2:18 pm
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Thanks to everyone for all of the wonderful info...I think that I'll just punch him on the side of his neck! 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 2 Aug 2007 3:56 am
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| That oughta work... |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 2 Aug 2007 5:09 am
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ok Stu , some more free legal advice,
When you punch him in the side of the neck make sure nobody is making a video with there digital Camera..
It may end up on YouTube and you still may end up in Court !
TP |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 2 Aug 2007 10:33 am
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Tony,Thanks for the advice.I have decided to find some 10 year old Karate students and pay them $50.00 a piece to whack him!
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2007 11:29 am Me
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| I would shake his hand and thank him for thinking I my work was good enought to sell and then engage in him in the selling without permission conversation |
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2007 12:11 pm
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Robert,I always shake his hand..but he's just crossed a line with me,I don't hate the guy I just need to straighten his self promoting ass out!
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2007 12:40 pm Self Promoter
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| Yes I understand |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 10 Aug 2007 12:51 pm
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| Quote: |
| Tony,Thanks for the advice.I have decided to find some 10 year old Karate students and pay them $50.00 a piece to whack him! |
Uhh, let's see...conspiracy to commit a felony and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
He ain't worth it.
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Stu Schulman
From:
Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)
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Posted 10 Aug 2007 2:53 pm
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Donny,You need to watch the episode of Seinfeld where a group of young Karate kids beat up Kramer..now that's what I'm talkin' about.It's my twisted sense of humor,nobody's gonna get whacked.....Yet 
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952. |
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 10:34 pm Legal Question
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| I heard a copyright lawyer lecturing about software copyrights. He said that if one was sued for copyright infringement that that you should continue to make money until the day the cease and decist order is issued, and then pay any dmaages owed. His Logic?? You will most likely make way more than the punitive damages will be. My gues is the same applies here. Especially if they are covers and not originals. When the dixie chicks sued Sony it was for royalties for their original songs. Thats why they write all their own stuff now. It's the writers/holder of the copyright that gets the three cents every time the song is played on the radio. |
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Olli Haavisto
From:
Jarvenpaa,Finland
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 11:11 pm
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A lawyer singing the blues.... That should have made you suspicious from the start ! 
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Olli Haavisto
Finland |
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Dave Boothroyd
From:
Staffordshire Moorlands
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 12:40 am
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All the advice so far has been concerned with the composition side of the royalties and copyright issue.
In this case the important aspect is the making of "mechanical" copies of a recording of a live performance.
In both US and English law, the right to make copies of a recording belongs to the person who "facilitated' the recording.
That is taken to mean the person or organisation who arranged and paid for the recording to be be made.
So if the recording of the two tracks was made on your band's mixer, using your recording equipment, then the band, as a real or assumed partnership, owns the mechanical copyright on those recordings- that is the right to reproduce them on CD or any other medium-, whoever played on them or wrote the songs (who will be due royalties as well)
If your guest performer plugged his recorder into your desk, but the gig had been arranged by the band, the band is still the main facilitator.
If he hired the band and set up the gig and recorded the performance, he is the facilitator and has the right to copy the recordings as long as he has a licence from the publisher to use the songs.
If somebody else did all that,using their equipment, then the right to copy the CD belongs to the organiser.
If it was all shared, then so is the mechanical copyright.
I would strongly advise against assaulting a lawyer.
Even shaking his hand to vigorously could be risky, if it damages the hand he uses for taking all his money to the bank.
This information comes from Passman's book, "All you need to know about the music business", which I heartily recommend.
Cheers
Dave |
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