A Musician or a Steel Player????

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

One thing we all share here is the desire to play the steel guitar.

Some folks take lessons one on one; some buy books, audio and video courses; some just try to learn 'on their own'.

What do you see as your ROADMAP? What is the DESTINATION? Musician . . . or Steel Player?

my definitions:
A MUSICIAN concentrates on understanding how music works -- developing the ear to recognize intervals and chord forms -- what does a major 3rd or minor 3rd sound like? -- what does a Major 7 or Dom 7 chord sound like? -- what notes comprise an Ebm7 chord? -- what scale sounds good over a particular chord? A musician may be able to read standard music notation, but probably not sight read like a piano player -- but HE'D LIKE TO. The musician is always looking for similarities among chord progressions and melodies and understanding how it all works.

A STEEL PLAYER is primarily concerned with putting the fingers on the strings and the pedal to the metal. Learning songs from tab is more important than understanding WHY those notes and chords were used. A steel player may be proud of not knowing any music theory or not being able to read standard music notation.

Do you aspire more to be a STEEL PLAYER or a MUSICIAN? Why? How are you going about realizing those aspirations?
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Larry, the way you explained Musician and Steel Player here, I think we are both.

With us putting our hands on the strings and expecting to get a nice sound out of it we do need to learn and know a certain amount of theory.If we don't know how the chords inter-relate with the scales then I am afraid we would have a tough row to hoe.

Except for the fact that there are no notes written for pedal steel, I feel that everything else is the same for both a musician and a steel player. The Roadmap and the Destination are the same. Did Reece not talk about things similar to what I just tried to describe?

Or did I misunderstand you totally? Set me straight if I did.

Anyway, that is what I got out of your post for now.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 23 Aug 2007 7:45 am

Actually I aspire to be both. I don't think you really can or should be only one to the exclusion of the other. In fact I already am a professional guitarist with 43 years of experience. I graduated from Berklee College of Music in 1977. As far as your question, how do I go about realizing those aspirations, my answer is practice. What I have done is to take all my musical knowledge and applied it to my instrument, the pedal steel guitar. So basically in my case it is purely a question of mastering the techniques involved in playing the steel. What do I practice then? One thing I do is playing along with recordings that have steel players ( and also recordings without steel players) and try to emulate what the steel player on the recording does. I don't just copy what he plays though. I take it a step further and try to come up with my own lines and ideas based on what I hear the steel player doing. I also transcribe solos which is excellent ear training, and also gives me the oppurtunity to see how professionals think musically on the steel. Here's a link to a Curly Chalker solo which I recently transcribed and tabbed out and posted in the tablature section-
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=112175

Needless to say,I also learn a great deal by reading and interacting with other steel players here on the forum.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

by those definitions I guess i am neither a musician nor a steel player. funny, I woulda liked to think I was both.

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Anybody that strives to play a musical instrument (any musical instrument) is automatically a musician. He or she may not be interested in learning musical notation or the analysis of chord structure etc., but will use those items anyway whether he or she wants to or not.

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

I understand and do appreciate all of the words and thinking that have been devoted to this post. Lot's of great talent here on the Forum.
But for me, all of this technical talk that I cannot even begin to repeat here, is enough, even at this late date in the game, to scare me right out of ever wanting to become a musican. Relating chords to scales and whatever.
Personally, I can't remember when I ever played my last scale; or, if I ever did play one.
If a musician can't HEAR a melody line and be able to remember it for 5 minutes, how can one expect to play it, improvise around it, or, backup to it, regardless of what chord or meloday scale it might involve?
I'm certain that a lot of this heavy theory talk about all the different, foreign sounding chords is pretty frightening to a dedicated wanne-be player.
I've seen many a player that could talk me into a corner with all that technical musical language yet, they couldn't figure out how to install their finger picks, were too lazy to learn how to hold and/or slant the bar, didn't know where or how to place their right hand, no idea of how to set the dials on their amp, no idea what strings or tuning to use, etc.
LISTENING....IMHO..is the most important method to LEARNING steel guitar.
Never try to learn too many different things or styles at once. Take it one step at a time. Master step one, BEFORE moving on to step two.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I still think that there are many steel players who have no idea or desire to know what notes or chords they are playing. If there were no such thing as a steel guitar they probably wouldn't play music.

Ray -- I certainly meant no disrespect for those who choose not to study music and learn the terminology that allows musicians to communicate more effectively. We all know examples of those who play great but couldn't tell you what they played. Many paths that (can) lead to becoming a proficient player.

I disagree that anyone who plunks a few notes on a piano (or any instrument) is, or aspires to be, a musician.

The main distinction I see is the desire to understand HOW MUSIC WORKS. If you know how to find an Em7 by understanding what notes comprise that chord and where those notes lie on the guitar you are approaching the instrument as a musician, in my book. (for what that's worth)

What's more important to you: the MUSIC or the INSTRUMENT?

Of course you can be both a musician and a steel player. But most players either go about it from a mechanical path (play string 5, mash the A pedal, etc) or a desire to put that into a musical context (play string 5 -- it is the 5th tone of the scale -- press the A pedal, raising the 5th to the 6th, etc).

Good discussion . . . keep it up.

Mike -- good work on the transcription. In my book you are a musician. You would play music whether or not the steel guitar existed.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I'd like to digress slightly. I recently was given a CD by one of our fellow forumites. The songs included SG Rag, Waltz Across Texas, Sleepwalk, Cold Cold Heart- you get the idea.

I fail to understand why somebody would take the time and trouble to learn how to play (and the artist in question is clearly a very good player) and then play the same songs that have already been done to death.

There is a wealth of music in the world ranging tom Mozart to Motown to all points in between that is perfectly suited for the steel guitar. I think more players should look at what's out there and start "thinking outside the box."
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Barry Blackwood · Posted 23 Aug 2007 9:55 am

Mike, I completely agree, however, might you be running the risk of hijacking the thread here ......?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Not really -- no problem MP

I think where Mike may be going with this is if a player is limited to instructional materials that stress learning to play ONE ARRANGEMENT of a song it is difficult to learn to adapt new tunes -- whether they be country/western or ska/reggae or classical/baroque.

Understanding enough music to use a jazz fakebook or any sheet of music to create a personalized arrangement is a hallmark of what I referred to as a 'MUSICIAN'.
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My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

I'm enjoying this thread. Smile

Tamara James · Posted 23 Aug 2007 10:09 am

Great question.

At 16, I started taking drum lessons for the high school band. I learned rhythm.

At 30, I took 3 years of piano lessons. I learned to read music and sight read. A little theory.

At 48, I took up the mountain dulcimer. I learned melody, cords, back-up, how to read tab, yadda, yadda...

At 53, I have begun learing the steel guitar. I went through all that to find my nich. I like playing cords. There is so much one can do with them, especially combined with rhythms and different pickin' styles. Without the first 4 things, I would have no idea what I wanted out of the steel. Half my instructor's work is already done. I understand the boring parts. We work on the heart of it. I think that I would like to be both musician and steel player. I would like to think someday I will be a musician who plays steel. I think one of the greatest things I heard a musician say when asked if they read music, "not so much it hurts my playin'"

Mike Shefrin · Posted 23 Aug 2007 10:10 am

Barry Blackwood · Posted 23 Aug 2007 10:15 am

Mike S. it was Mike P. I was addressing - my apologies for not making that clear.

Mike Shefrin · Posted 23 Aug 2007 10:16 am

No problem. Thanks Barry. I just realized that, and subsequently edited my last post before you posted yours. Sorry for the confusion.

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

In my opinion anyone who chooses to make sounds with his or her voice (apart from verbal communication) and/or some sort of instrument(s) for expressive or aesthetic purposes is, indeed, a musician. It doesn't matter what terminology or organizing system, or lack thereof, they use.

By the definition offered at the start of this thread, a sitar player with total mastery of Indian classical music would not qualify as a musician! Nor would John Lee Hooker.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

I agree on John Lee Hooker -- he was a masterful blues guitarist but not a student of music

I disagree on the Indian master. While I may have shown my own bias toward Western music with the examples, any sitar player who has studied classical ragas is clearly a musician. My general distinction is that the music one plays fits into a system that can be used to expand one's knowledge and communicate with others.

Don't get too hung up on the terminology
-- one thinks about the notes and flow and composition in an academic manner
-- and the other just plays.

Both can make beautiful music, some folks who play steel study music; others don't.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
My CD's: 'I've Got Friends in COLD Places' - 'Pedal Steel Guitar'
2021 Rittenberry S/D-12 8x7, 1976 Emmons S/D-12 7x6, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Quilter ToneBlock 202 TT-12

John McGuire · From: Swansea,Illinois, USA

Well, mark me as steel player, and not the best. But, I don't learn my songs from tab I may referance tab for something I can't figure on my own but I figure most out by knowing where my chords are with with out peds & knees. Don't really want to be a musician, then i would have to join the union! Very Happy

Barry Blackwood · Posted 23 Aug 2007 12:12 pm

"Don't really want to be a musician, then i would have to join the union!"

Yeah, and play for scale!

Charley Wilder · From: Dover, New Hampshire, USA

Ray described my feelings almost exactly. I tend to know just enough about music to play what I hear. I have never learned any more about music then I absolutely had to. LISTENING! The best banjo player I ever heard told me his formula for learning to play was two hours of listening for every hour of playing. I believe it!

Ron Sodos · From: San Antonio, Texas USA

Not enough to hurt my pickin!

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

I quess I'm gonna fall somewhere in between. I've stated before that my music theory is limited, almost non-existant but not because I feel I don't need to know some.

I read the posts here on the Forum concerning chords, and scales then try to put some of it together. Some of it actually sinks in, and everyone here has been really good about answering questions concerning chords, scales and other dumb things. Very Happy

As far as what notes make up chords, I can't relate to them on the fly, but I can stop and figure them out usually, sometimes have to refer to a chord chart. Chord progressions usually come pretty easy for me, most of the time I can listen to a song once and have the progression, but not always some really trip me up! Embarassed

Thirty years of bass guitar, and six string quitar before starting on steel I did learn some things. Laughing

Like I said, I quess I fall somewhere in between. Rolling Eyes

Larry
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David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Doug Beaumier · From: Northampton, MA

Larry Bell, this thread looks like an offshoot of the "heated" Notes-Tab thread in the Tablature section. Winking

----> Click

I agree that there is often a disconnect between "steel player" and "musician", unfortunately. ...but it would take a 500 page book to fully explain why!

IMHO it’s a combination of factors: the music industry, the stereotyping of steel guitar, the complexity of PSG, etc. Ultimately it’s up to the Steel Players themselves. Any “musician” should know where the notes are on his instrument. He should know the scales and how to use the scales to Create and Improvise. He should know the various chord types in several positions on his instrument. He should understand chord construction, what notes make up major and minor chords. Note reading is important too. A good musician should be able to communicate with other musicians in "musical" terms, not in terms of "boo-wah" and "X-lever". He needs to know what Musical changes are taking place when he pushes the pedals and levers. Otherwise he's just playing by <b>Rote</b>.

I think tablature is a valuable learning tool for PSG, but notes are important too. Neither one provides the full picture. Tab with notes is the way to go IMHO.

Question: If a Classical violinist plays by Notes Only, but plays flawlessly, with excellent technique, exactly what is written on the page, lightning fast, and exactly correct... But that violinist can Not improvise at all... is that person a "Good Musician"? Winking

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