| Author |
Topic: Fender 1000 Idea |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 13 Jul 2007 8:46 pm |
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I've just bought a Fender 1000 on eBay but I haven't received it yet. Thinking about copedents. I really don't know the limits of Fender's cable-driven system. Is something like this even possible?
The Fender manual shows each pedal activating exactly two changes on exactly one neck. I'd like to have pedals that pull 3 strings, 2 on one neck and one on the other. Is it possible? Would they be too stiff?
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Jul 2007 10:24 pm
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Bob... All the Fender cable rigs will do your top neck fine, but I have never pulled 3 strings. I have read somewhere where they add a double pulley so you can pull more strings.
Jim Sliff probably knows the most about these guitars... Maybe he will chime in here and answer your question.
You will enjoy that guitar. What they do, they do well !!!
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 2:02 am
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3 and 4 string pulls can be accommodated, BUT the limiting factor is the SINGLE raise and lower.
I see you have string 6 on the E9th neck going from E to D AND D# .. NOT possible, unless the string is tuned OPEN to D# and raised to E and flattened to D.
There is the main problem.
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buyรขโฌโรขโฌโ> |
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Jay Fagerlie
From:
Lotus, California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 5:33 am
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I think Jim Sliff has a way to do double raise and lowers, I'm sure he'll pipe in shortly
Jay |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 6:26 am
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Yep, double raises or lowers are easy - I have them on my 400 and they stay in tune, have a nice feel and are *cheap* to make. There was a thread on the old forum about it, but basically:
1. Unsolder the loop from the shortest-pull cable and run the cable through a piece of 90-degree 1-inch angle iron and a Shobud barrel tuner.
2. Resolder the loop and replace on changer.
3. Tune the pull with the longest-pull cable at the changer.
4. Tune the shorter pull using the barrel.
If that doesn't make sense I'll try to find the old pics.
However, 3 pulls on an older long-scale 1000 can be REALLY stiff. I would change springs on the lowers to lighter tension - that lightens it up a bunch. On the raises, helper springs can do wonders. They are a little more difficult to hook up (and work out the right tension) but are far less difficult than adding crosshafts and bellcranks on newer guitars. b0b, if you need some help with helper springs I can draw it out and send it to you - let me know.
Last - often the cables are not long enough to reach both necks. I would lengthen the loop cable, not the turnbuckle one; it's easier to get a good solder joint inside a loop tube than a turnbuckle. Cheap 1/16" cable from Home Depot works perfectly.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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John Poston
From:
Albuquerque, NM, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 8:18 am
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| Another option for you might be to hook one of the P3 cables to the str6 raise and the other cable to the str6 lower. Then use the lower to tune the P3 raise down to D. Sometimes this works and sometimes the raise doesn't come out smooth enough. |
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Nic du Toit
From:
Milnerton, Cape, South Africa
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 8:59 am
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Hey Jim, Peter says "Hi!"
 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 9:25 am
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| basilh wrote: |
3 and 4 string pulls can be accommodated, BUT the limiting factor is the SINGLE raise and lower.
I see you have string 6 on the E9th neck going from E to D AND D# .. NOT possible, unless the string is tuned OPEN to D# and raised to E and flattened to D.
There is the main problem. |
Thanks. That's the kind of info I needed.
The idea of adding Home Depot and Sho-Bud parts to a vintage instrument does not really appeal to me. I'd like to come up with something that works within the parameters of Fender's original design.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 11:02 am
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The amount of tension on a 3 or 4 string pull has never seemed excessive to me, but then again I fine tune the tension with string gauge and tension spring manipulation.
Fender DID supply a harness with two pulleys and three loops, not as standard, but on the 9 pedal Billy Hew Len Fender 400 that I have, there are TWO sets of three pull assemblies.
One further thought, b0b you haven't said whether it's a Mk1 or a Mk2 ? Cast pedals or chrome, longscale or short roller bridge combined changer, or the one with rings ?
I DOES matter which as far as tensions go.
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buyรขโฌโรขโฌโ> |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 11:23 am
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Maybe re-think the tuning and pedal copedent on the TOP neck, from the top down ... E - C# - B - G# - E - B - G# - E ... may be better, and take the middle E to F# and the lower B to D on the SAME pedal and lower the top two E's on a single pedal.
If Pedal 1 takes the two B's to C# and Pedal 2 takes the G#s to A, the pedal 3 could be utilized to take the TOP two E's to D#, THEN Pedal 1+2 is the standard E9 A/B change and pedal 2+3 is the common change from a 1 to a 5.
Have the top E and the next string (C#) on one pedal going to F# and D respectively and you have a workable tuning. VERY similar to the one I've used on my Emmons for the past 37 years.
The C6th is practical but may have better alternatives. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 4:08 pm
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Baz, it's a MK1.
b0b, the parts to acheive the double raise or lower, as you can see by the picture posted (which is the method I use) is not "invasive"; if it were a '59 Strat it would be inadvisable to drill holes, but these guitars do NOT have the same collector appeal, and one or two extra screw holes n the bottom of the body (easily filled and made almost invisible) don't affect the value of the guitar at all, unless it's 100% dead-mint, which yours isn't.
In other words - make it work FOR YOU as long as you're not hacking it to pieces. Almost every one I've seen has had parts added and sometimes removed - knee levers, extra pulleys - and if (I can't recall) you have roller bridges, it's ALREADY been modified - those were not stock, and were aftermarket parts requiring drilling of the changer top plates and the body.
I'd really rethink it - the double-raise/lower mod I've found to be pretty common, with several approaches used. This is just the "cleanest" one to me...and also strong and effective. It's also invisible unless you get on the floor and look up - there's nothing exposed to view.
It's the best way to get what you want IMO.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 4:12 pm
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| Quote: |
| longscale or short roller bridge combined changer, or the one with rings ? |
Baz, don't you mean longscale with the rings and either a bar or roller bridge, or shortscale with the rocking "finger" bridge?
The shortscale bridge never had rollers. The roller bridge was only offered as an add-on part by Fender for the longscale models.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 4:18 pm
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Let me see if this upload function works:
...not really very intrusve.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 5:26 pm
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I really don't need double raise or double lower, or more than 2 changes per pedal. 16 changes is plenty for a D-8, I think. Here's another idea:
| Tab: |
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E
D -C#
B ++C#
G# +A
F# --E
E --D
B ++C# --A
E
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E +F
D +D#
C +C# -B
A ++B
G -F#
E -Eb +F
D
C +C#
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8 |
Updated with clearer thinking  and better formatting.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 15 Jul 2007 11:09 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Moon in Alaska
From:
Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 7:02 pm
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Yes, Bob.... That looks workable. On my Fender 400,
I have allways favored having the High G#. I think it depends a lot on your playing style. Those tunings will both work good....
Moon
_________________
<<Moon>>
==Carter S-10==
1962 Fender 400
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 8:06 pm
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b0b, quick off-topic question: what are you creating those copedents with? I've still never been able to post one without the formatting going to heck...but those seem to be pictures of some type rather than text.
??
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2007 10:22 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
b0b, quick off-topic question: what are you creating those copedents with? I've still never been able to post one without the formatting going to heck...but those seem to be pictures of some type rather than text.
?? |
The first one was a screen capture of an Excel spreadsheet on a PC. I used PaintShop Pro to capture an area of the screen, then saved it as a PNG file and uploaded that to my web host. I could have just saved it as a JPG and used the Forum "Upload Picture" button, but a PNG downloads much faster.
The second one was made with TextEdit on a Mac, and copy/pasted into the Forum message inside of a [tab] BBCode block. It's just plain text.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 7:39 am
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Thanks. I was going to post my 1000 copedent for comparison, but still can't get (never have gotten) the [tab] command to work. There must be a specific formatting method, but I can't find it posted anywhere. I'm also using Textedit on a Mac, but it still comes out all misaligned. I'll guess I'll bail out of that method and take time to do a spreadsheet
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 7:59 am
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Looks like I *finally* figured it out. I copied b0b's text version and used all spaces instead of tabs like I had been using. Is that the trick? Somehow it always seemed tabs would make the most sense...I guess not.
Anyway - I thought I'd post what I'm currently using for comparison. Some may not have seen the Sneaky Pete copedent lately, and the SS I use is somewhat like b0b's, but without changes.
The back neck is the early "Sneaky Pete" B6 before he added knee levers (pre '73 or so), and is what I do 90% of my playing on. If you look closely it's really sort of a reverse-universal, with a C6-style tuning using both E9 and C6-style changes. For most stuff, pedals 1&2 (the A&B pedals, essentially) plus 7 for "stringbender-ish" licks and minors plus 8 for minors are the most used, and what I've recommended to guys with 4-pedal 400 models.
5,6, (&7) are C6-type changes; pedal 3 a gets you an "open" dom7th, and pedal 4 is an alternative to pedal 8 depending on where your feet are (I have never figured out quite why it's there, to be honest, and Pete never did explain that one) - it's a two-foot dance with little volume pedal use (although you can use one for typical A/B pedal stuff)
The back neck is an open-8 Sacred Steel tuning worked up by Ed Bierly, very similar to yours. Actually, I think he may have just "borrowed" it and found it worked well with no pedals. Great for jamming along with RR or the Campbells, but I use it more for bottleneck-style electric and acoustic blues ala John Lee Hooker and Elmore James. It's one of those tunings that once you find a groove you don't realize 10 minutes have passed...
b0b - just out of curiosity, since I just have single changes on pedals 4, 5 & 7, which of your SS changes do you think might be the most useful if you could only use 3 of them? I might just hook 'em up for fun. Also I'd be interested in your 4th, 5th and 6th choices - if I add knee levers to complete the "modern" Sneaky copedent I can probably add two or three more changes.
| Tab: |
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E
D
B
G#
E
E
B
E
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
D# +E -D
B -Bb +C# -Bb
G# +A
F# +G# -F
D# +E -D
B +C#
G# +A
F# +G#
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
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Edited to add missing change on pedal 8 - the 2nd string lower, which is very important!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Last edited by Jim Sliff on 15 Jul 2007 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jay Fagerlie
From:
Lotus, California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 9:17 am
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You guys keep this up and I will be forced to pull my Fender out and start messin' with some changes!
Jay |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 10:04 am
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
| Looks like I *finally* figured it out. I copied b0b's text version and used all spaces instead of tabs like I had been using. Is that the trick? Somehow it always seemed tabs would make the most sense...I guess not. |
The "tab" key on a keyboard inserts a "tab character" into the stream of letters. The behavior of the tab character is simply defined as "white space" in HTML and is therefore unpredictable in web browsers. Use spaces instead. I'm sure we've been through this before in Forum Feedback, and it is explained in the BBCode FAQ.
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
b0b - just out of curiosity, since I just have single changes on pedals 4, 5 & 7, which of your SS changes do you think might be the most useful if you could only use 3 of them? I might just hook 'em up for fun. Also I'd be interested in your 4th, 5th and 6th choices - if I add knee levers to complete the "modern" Sneaky copedent I can probably add two or three more changes.
| Tab: |
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
E
D
B
G#
E
E
B
E
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
D# +E -D
B -Bb +C#
G# +A
F# +G# -F
D# +E -D
B +C#
G# +A
F# +G#
P1 P2 P3 P4 P5 P6 P7 P8
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I can see no logical reason for the doubled E string if you don't have pedals/levers that raise one and lower the other. The SS copedent condenses 3 E9th strings, F# E and D, into two E strings that provide the same notes. If you want to play with that concept, raise the 5th string E to F# on P4 and lower the 6th string E to D# and D on P5 and P7, respectively, using your Sho-Bud barrel trick.
_________________
-๐๐๐- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 11:45 am
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| Quote: |
| I can see no logical reason for the doubled E string if you don't have pedals/levers that raise one and lower the other. |
Oh, but there is - that doubled-e has huge "stun" effect when you kick them both hard sliding into a note. It's a HUGE sound, especially hitting the low E right at the end of the slide. Sounds like cannon fire.
I'll probably play with those changes though, just to see what happens. I can't "hear" changes when I read them (even playing the single notes doesn't register completely) - I have to hook 'em up and actually use them to get a real idea of what's happening.
(we may have been over the BBCode stuff - if so I must not have had time to work on it then and had forgotten there were instructions in the BBCode section. How about a "sticky" in the Forum Feedback section? I'm sure I'm not the only one who stopped trying to post copedents because I couldn't find the info...)
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
Last edited by Jim Sliff on 15 Jul 2007 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 11:48 am
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The "huge cannon firing sound effect" is not worth 1/8th of a tuning, IMHO.  Boiling 3 strings down to 2, though - that's sheer genius! And if you can get the cannon firing as a bonus, fine. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 11:55 am
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I guess it depends on what you're after - for me, I use that neck for a more raw, bottleneck-style sound with some breakup (not smooth distortion), a lot of vibrato and a lot of hammers and bar rattles. It's more for "groove" playing than licks, scales, lead runs etc. Having "more notes" available there really isn't that critical, and I don't need pedals for three-chord changes (moving the bar sounds like a guitar, which is the idea)...or one chord "boogie" stuff.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 15 Jul 2007 1:09 pm
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| b0bby Lee joining the Fender club ... well alright! |
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