P7 Question

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Most of us have a high D string on our C6th neck, and the C to B lever has always been standard. Why is the P7 pedal still considered a necessity? What can you get from it that you can't get from the C to B lever, once you add the D string into the mix?

Is P7 just a relic from the "G on top" tuning?
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Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

I'm new to C6 (and it's early, so this may be stupid) and have been wondering would it possible (on a PP D10) to double stop my A to Bb knee to take the C to D as the Bb goes to B? I'd need a lot of leverage on the C string. Or double stopping the C to C# lever to take it to D with a double stopped A/Bb/B lever.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bobby Lee-In answer to your question. As for me, I use it a lot. So I can say you can get plenty with it. It is a movaable pedal so works up and down the fretboard. I don't think I could play without it on all my old standards.

You can use the Flatted B with the D on top to do a lot of it, as you say. But you would have to do more string picking,instead of a straight strum. The effect would't be the same. I could go into more detail about all the musical ways to use P7, but I won't take the time now....al. Smile

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Jerry Erickson · From: Atlanta,IL 61723

I find it useful for phrasing, ie guitar-like hammer-on and pull-off type things. I've contemplated other people's suggestions about putting it on a knee but I don't think that my knee could move it as fast as my foot.

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

b0b, I don't play C6th at all but on my S-12 I have some of the changes. I assume that pedal 7 is the one that raises strings 3 and 4 a whole tone each? If that's so, on my guitar that would be the one which raises strings 5 & 6 a whole tone and is really my most used "6th" type pedal with the E's lowered. On some instrumentals like "Raisin' the Dickens" it's really a neccessity. I don't see how you could play the chorus of that tune without it. Also here in Virginia it's commonly called the "Thompson" pedal as I think it's credited to Bob White and was used on a lot of Hank Thompson recordings.
Also it can be used along with the pedal which lowers string 5 a half tone and raises string 9 a half tone and string 10 a whole tone. It's probably a "two footer" for most players but think of the tune "Misty" Say you're doing it in the key of C. Go to the 10th fret and use both of those pedals together for the opening V chord behind the lyrics "Look.. At" and then back to the 12 fret (no Pedals) for "Me".........JH in Va.
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Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

b0b
P.7 is not a redundancy, because there's no other way of having the sound of movement on S.3 without the raise being on a pedal or lever, or moving the bar physically. Like Al Marcus alluded to, having a D string on top is another place to get that note, but sometimes it's not in the correct position for the effect desired.

A similar situation has been brought up in the past regarding P.4 (s.4 raised whole tone) when RKL (s.3 lowered 1/2 tone) is present. You get the same note, but the effect is different.

It's all a matter of what licks you want to play, how often, how quickly, and with what fingering. Personally, I can't do without either P.4 or P.7, and I do have a D note on top.

As a matter of interest, C6 master Jim Loessberg has a D note on top, and no C-C# lever. I don't think it hurts J.Lo's playing one bit. Wink

Of course, Joaquin Murphey and Jerry Byrd didn't have a 5th on top when they recorded some of their most dramatic and compelling solos. Murphey later did add the 5th on top inversion.

A "5th on top" inversion can be found on S.3-4-5-6 with P.7; again, not the same sound, but it's there. Another one of those "what's your style?" trade-offs.
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Drew Howard · From: 48854

P7 allows you the change without altering your grip, and the change itself is a specific sound.

To Herb's point about Jim Loessberg's lack of C-C# change, I have a Derby without that pull. I was able to get most of what I needed by substituting P7.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I find myself using the C to B knee lever to get that position all the time, because 1) it's the same movement and chord change as the E lever on my E9th, 2) I don't have to use both feet to combine it with P5, and 3) I don't have to move my foot at all to use it.

Does anyone use a tunable split on P7+K?
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John Bechtel · From: Nashville, Tennessee, R.I.P.

P-7 = 6-E, 5-G, 4-B, 3-D, 2-E, 1-D = G6 chord.
P-7 + Lower (C)-3rd.
6-E, 5-G, 4-B, 3-C#, 2-E, 1-D = A9 chord. If you have the ‘split-pedal’ adjustment.
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Wayne Cox · From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA * R.I.P.

It kind of comes down to basics, doesn't it? There are several ways to make a Maj7th or a Maj9th chord, so why not use them selectively to acheive that thing jerry Byrd called "flow"? The sound of the whole tone raise which pedal 7 gives, simply has a beautiful flowing sound to it. In other words; its not about the theory or the mechanics, its about the beauty of the sound! Smile

~~W.C.~~

Jonathan Cullifer · From: Gallatin, TN

I recently switched to a D string on top from a G. P7 was my way of getting a D note. It didn't give me everything I wanted, so I changed it. I don't use P7 as much as I used to, but with the strings below it, I use it quite frequently. There are a lot of chords that use that pedal, and while I can get most of the same chords by dropping my G to a F and sliding up two frets, it's an entirely different sound. Like the C pedal on E9. The notes are there already with the A pedal and the first string, but I'd never do without that either.

Bob Strum · From: Anniston Alabama

How do you play "Dream" with out P-7 ?

Larry Lorows · From: Zephyrhills,Florida, USA

Jerry Hayes and John Bechtel, you are great, thank you.Two new chord positions for me and a new way to play Misty. Thanks again. Larry
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Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Bob Strum-your CD is beautiful on the C6 tuning and you use all the chords that fit so nice.

I use it a lot on "Dream" and many other songs. P7 is so smooth and moving to use P7 on that. Alvino Rey used it a lot way back in the 40's. Most of the songs are easier to use P7 on a knee lever, the player can still keep a P7 on the floor if he wants to play faster than he can on a knee...al. Smile

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Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "Dream"? That is, who wrote and/or performed it?

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Ernest-You got it! I used to play that in 1947 on my used new Electraharp from a club one the air at midnight. Used to get calls at the club from people saying they listend to our show and that tune every night before retiring. I used P7 a lot as the Gibson had no knee levers, so used the right foot, then used P 5 a lot with it. But with only 8 strings and no high G# (3rd) or high F#9th) I used a E7 pedal with my E6 tuning with a 9th in it, so it was just about like your C6 P5, with my tuning P5 was F# 7th-9th.
"Dream" is a beautiful song and sounds smooth on the Steel guitar.....al. Smile

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Larry Robertson · From: Denver, Colorado, USA

The MSA Vintage XL I have, had P7 raising string 3 C to D, and string 4 A to B. So I have 1st string tuned to G. With P7 down I get a G chord at the open tuning, with 2 inversions: strings 1,3,4 (G,D,B), and 3,4,5 (D,B,G) at the same open position as open C. Adding string 2(E) or 6)E) to either of these inversions gets the G6th in 3 nice 4 note inversions. Also this tuning & pedal gets another 2 C6 chord inversions at the 5th fret, which of course is at the bar position for the F chord. All this means that starting at any bar position the 1, 4, and 5 chords are only 2 frets apart, with more than an octave available within those 2 positions. I like it. Also give lots of minors (6,2,& 3) in the same way at the same frets using the C drop to B lever on the first 3 strings.
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Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Pedal 7 has the very important role of extending the stacked thirds from string 9 up to string 3. Without it, you have the 4th string A note in the middle which when playing certain chords/harmony from traditional and bebop jazz, show tunes, lounge music, and decades of famous pop standards up through the present, will often get in the way. While it is true that you can lower the third string to B and pick string 1, and` skip string 4, to accomplish the same thing, it makes the job MUCH more difficult. Similar to E9 where you could press pedal A and pick strings 1,3,5 to get an F#m chord, but it's so much easier to press pedal C and play strings 3,4,5.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Here's a short clip that uses pedal 7, 10 times. If I get time later I'll post it in the tab section. Randy Beavers posted recently about a way to do the beginning of this lick with the A to Ab change. With this method I hit the notes then pressed pedal 7 for effect. Sliding in to these notes with a 1 tone pull does make it more of a pedal steel effect.

Tab 360

Greg

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Jeff-Glad to see your post, and thanks for posting.

of what the P79Maj7-9) does in jazz, old standards ,etc,.A perfectly great explanation.

.When
I lower the C to B, on most tunes I don't like the A in there either.
And I can strum on the chord , big advantage to me. Makes it a lot easier on this old player...al. Smile

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Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

I'm glad the old tune "Dream" was mentioned. I'd never heard it on steel before until a few years ago at a MASGA get together in Wilson, NC which Herby Wallace attended. In his set Herby played it and I'll have to say that until that moment, Dream had never been played before or probably since. Herby had the most exciting and haunting version of this beautiful melody I've ever heard with great chord defination and vibrato to die for.....Oh, I believe he also used the "7th" pedal a lot.

Back when I was still in SoCal I was working a club in north Long Beach and the band on our off nights was Danny Michaels and the Rebel Playboys. One Monday night I went to listen to them and the steel player was none other than Buddy Merrill the ex Lawrence Welk guitarist. Anyway, Buddy played a beautiful version of the old standard "Once in a While". I went up and complimented him on the tune and asked him what pedals he used to do the first line "once in a while" and it was open for three strums and the push the "7th" pedal, try it and you'll hear it if you're familiar with the tune!....JH in Va.
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Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Jerry-Beautiful! I have played them both and many more in 1947 with my 6 pedal 8 string Electra-Harp cabinet model. And I wouln't be without that moving Pedal 7 (major7th-9th). I got it on a knee lever on my Pro 1 with 6pedals and 5 knee levers. I use it all the time with the so-called P5 and P6.

For E9 players, it is on the first 2 strings, that is Emaj7-9 with strings 8-6-5. Most already lower the 2nd D# to C#, and if you lower the 1st F# to E, you got it....al. Smile

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