Django on the steel?

Bill McCloskey · Posted 1 Aug 2005 7:34 am

I've recently uncovered a renewed interest in the swing music of Django, Charlie Christian, etc and wondered if anyone knew anyone playing Django type music on Lap or Pedal Steel.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bill, had I known that you were interested in Gypsy Jazz, I would have "stunned" you with my version of "Dark Eyes" on your dobro last Thursday evening.

I don't know of anyone, or have heard of anyone playing this music on steel or resonator. IMO, the music works better on acoustic if you are attempting to keep it close to original. I think there would be an analogy to pre war and post war Hawaiian music when electric replaced acoustic.

It would be great if someone would champion this.

In November, Birdland hosts their annual Django Fest with European artists and American guest artists. That is music that you cannot believe.

I could go on & on here, but, I've got hats to sell!

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I'm working on it.

Howard's right, though; this is music meant to be played on guitar. The picking technique of using rest strokes is extremely important to the style and sound of this music and it would require tremendous, unheard of dexterity to pull off the left hand runs with just a bar.

Gene Jones · From: Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 13 September 2005 at 02:36 PM.]

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bill McCloskey · Posted 1 Aug 2005 9:56 am

"it would require tremendous, unheard of dexterity to pull off the left hand runs with just a bar"

What if your were to use a chromatic 12 string tuning?

Pete Blakeslee · From: Lincoln, NE

Stacy Phillips has a great version of "Swing 39 (?$)?)" on "Hey Mister Get the Ball" or whatever it is called.

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Many tunes from Django's repertoire can be played on the steel. But to play them in the Django style would be a bit difficult.

Some Django tunes playable on non-pedal:
Honeysuckle Rose
I'm Confessin
China Boy
Lady Be Good
St. Louis Blues
I'll See You In My Dreams

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

Mark Eaton · Posted 1 Aug 2005 10:06 am

Last December I attended a concert put on by former Bay Area boy and Nashville dobroist extraordinaire, Rob Ickes. he was accompanied by sometime David Grisman Quintet member, Joe Craven, who played a bizarre array of percussion instruments, fiddle, and mandolin.

Joe's latest cd gives a South American treatment to the music of Django. They played about three of those tunes.

Rob was saying that one of his musical heroes in the last few years is the French guitarist, and Django stylist, Bireli LeGrene ( Not sure if I got the spelling right). He played two "Djangoesque" tunes from Bireli.

It was outstanding.

It really impressed upon me that through trail blazers like Jerry Douglas, Rob Ickes and others, the dobro has shed its image as a bluegrass only instrument, or a country instrument used to get the "high, lonesome sound" on certain songs.

Rob is just an amazing musician-he has incredible chops. After a concert like that one is inspired to go home and practice.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 01 August 2005 at 11:07 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 01 August 2005 at 11:08 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 02 August 2005 at 07:19 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

I don't know, Howard; I'd like to hear it.
Too hard to imagine what is being discussed. I'd like to hear from the source.
Please post it? Hey, I post the worst stuff, just to get others to do the same!

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Just some random thoughts....

Yes, there are a lot of horizons being broadened in music and the resophonic/steel should be a part of it.

Joe Craven's Django Latino is brilliant (IMO) with regard to an original idea, taking compositions by Django and arranging them in the styles of various latin countries. Django himself wrote several latin inspired tunes as he was influenced by both Spanish gypsys and Oscar Aleman, the Argentinian Swing guitarist with whom he informally played.

Stacy Phillips is another acomplished dobroist who has the dexterity for this music. He plays a rendition of Flambe Montaparnase on one of his latest cd's and it is quite impressive.

Bill, I have also thought about tunings and what would be best. I find that the tuning you know the best, is indeed the best. A totally chromatic tuning could emulate those fast chromatic runs, but then what? That's one trick, and it has become cliche'. I say that because I prefer a tuning that you can either fully, or partially strum as tremelo chords are a very important part of the music. They define the music more than the chromatic run, IMO. Sol Hoopi was a master of the chromatic run whether it was on acoustic or electric. On Radio Sol, he plays some extended chromatic runs that are unbelievable. I couldn't get runs like that if I ate a bowl of 5 star chili and ice cream!.....and he had 6 strings less than you have on your Superslide....

I think the C6/A7 (preferably 7 string) is a good tuning. Gypsy Jazz has a lot of minor chords, dom 7ths, minor 7ths, among many other enhanced and substituted chords, but you have these without having to slant. That means that you can play 3&4 note tremelo chords.

Those Herco picks that are a cross between a thumb pick & flat pick work the best, IMO. A strap is necessary with it going through your right arm. When you are about to resolve to the V7, lift your right forearm a bit allowing the guitar to angle upward, halfway vertical, hold the Herco tight and angle it just a little, and tremelo away. It's very effective. You may have to mute a bottom string with your left thumb or a top string with your left middle finger.

I don't play this tuning BTW.

I know that you're talking steel and I'm talking dobro. With pedals, you'll get any chord you want but you'll have a different sound. I wouldn't know how to approach Gypsy Jazz on steel.

Gerald, although I like the tunes you listed, they are renditions of American pop tunes, and I find, IMO, the real passion is in the real Gypsy tunes that were tradtional, and given the Django treatment. Django was also a great composer. Minor Swing, Dark Eyes, Troublant Bolero, Anouman, Tears, Blues Clair, Swing Gitan and the Valse or waltz are more deep rooted....to me. Of course Honeysuckle Rose, Sweet Georgia Brown are classics.

Kamalani o Keaukaha or Ukulele Lady?

Mike, the pre war Hawaiian techniques (Sol Hoopi)in many ways is similar to the Gypsy Jazz way of playing. I think if you know (and you certainly know) the techniques, they can be applied. I tend to avoid excessive sliding, excessive hammer ons & pull offs, & excessive 3 finger rolls. Using 2 fingers with a rocking back & forth motion, muting (I stink at muting), and stacato, is the way to go, IMO. Since I play in G (or G6/7) I'm trying to avoid the bluegrass sound. I think sliding and glissando are more effective on slower tunes and valses.

Birelli Lagrene was a child prodigy who in later years became involved in other styles and also became quite an acomplished bass player. The last several years he's returned to his roots but still ventures out and is highly regarded both in creativity and virtuosity.

What was the question?.....

[This message was edited by HowardR on 02 August 2005 at 04:24 AM.]

William Steward · From: Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands

Cindy Cashdollar has a tabbed version of Django's 'Minor Swing' on her Dobro Variations DVD instruction. I play it on my 6 string lap steel tuned to open G. It sounds great on lap or dobro.

Mark Eaton · Posted 1 Aug 2005 5:09 pm

I have that Cindy DVD-it's very good.

...and Rob Ickes plays all that stuff I wrote about earlier in good old open G.

------------------
Mark

Bill McCloskey · Posted 1 Aug 2005 8:00 pm

This whole thing has been kicked off by my son and my trip to the Mandolin Symposium and hearing a lot of Django being played plus his interest in swing jazz: looking for tunes we can play together.

The upshot is that I've gotten a renewed interest in 6 string guitar and just bought a Gibson ES 335, my first real electric to play some of the swing stuff on. I'd love to see lap steel brought into this as well.

Howard, your scholorship never ceases to amaze me.

Bill McCloskey · Posted 1 Aug 2005 8:02 pm

"and he had 6 strings less than you have on your Superslide.... "

Don't think I haven't been thinking about a double 12 string.

One neck for the fast runs, the other for backup.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian, two of my most favorite players! I can't imagine trying to play Django's stuff on steel, but someone will probably do it. It's hard enough to try and play like Django on a guitar.

Seems to me that Noel Boggs and Joaquin Murphy were playing a lot of CC type stuff on their steels, weren't they?

I like this new "mean" picture better than the other one, Gene. Watch it, you'll get the name "Mean Gene"...

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 01 August 2005 at 10:21 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I'll be playing "Nuages" at some point tues night at this
gig.

I've got enough problems trying to play the tune well enough to make it musical then to start trying to nail Django licks though !

I love that whole period of music. My musical life is on a different road for the time being but sometimes I think it be a good way to go to play nothing but early jazz on my bakelite Ricky.

------------------
Bob
My Website

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Aug 2005 6:47 am

Just had a bit of revelation driving into work today. Was listening to Charlie Christian playing with Bennie Goodman. It suddenly occured to me that steel would be great to replace all the Clarinet licks. I'm going home tonight and slow some of these BG solos down to see how they apply to the lap.

I just had this image of starting a swing band doing the horn lead on the steel and he django leads on guitar - like Junior brown does with country.

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

this pic comes from a site i visited a while back & lost track of w: pics of Django, friends & family
the fellow on the right is playin' a guitbox lap style
it's not Django
you'll have to blow it up of course to get a better view
or i can send it to ya' too

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 02 August 2005 at 09:38 AM.]

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

That's Django's brother, Joseph, who played strictly rhythm guitar. I've seen this photo many times. I believe that Joseph is just resting it on his lap. There has never been any kind of reference to any kind of lap style playing that I'm aware of.

BUT IF DJANGO DID PLAY LAP STYLE......
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[This message was edited by HowardR on 02 August 2005 at 12:00 PM.]

Bill McCloskey · Posted 2 Aug 2005 11:30 am

Howard....you are KILLING ME!!

Where did you get that! I want to see that when we meet up for drinks.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Breaking News! This just in!

Howard,

I believe that the Django community wide consensus is that Joseph was
playing lap (Selmer put out a Hawaiian squarneck..do you own one?lol) but,
for sure Oscar played with a lap payer in Argentina and they played tangos
and milongas. This was prior to Oscar's band days and his time in Europe.

That time period had tango, Hawaiian and swing making out in one big orgy
lol

Feel free to post this.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

That guitar was made by David Hodson of the UK. He had made a 7 string guitar for someone who disapeared and had no customers for it. I offered to take it if he would put a 7 string squareneck on it.

Bill Blacklock · From: Powell River, British Columbia, Canada

Give Roy Smeck a good listen, some real fine rags from years gone by.

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