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Topic: Mystery 1941 National New Yorker in need of TLC |
Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 5 Jul 2007 1:38 pm |
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I gladly admit that I love these old National New Yorkers. 
The one in the middle is a 1941 model that I received today, bought on eBay from a Peruvian antique dealer for a very reasonable sum.
It's very cool - the string-through pickup sounds crisp and very sweet! It's fascinating with these old instruments - how did this one end up in Peru? Romantic tales of World War II espionage in South America, featuring Panama hats, white suits and dodgy bars clouded in cigar smoke spring to mind. 
It needs some fixing up though. Only two original (metal) tuner buttons are intact. On the third string tuner "shaft" a replacement has been quite clumsily souldered on:
I have bought some Stew-Mac "ivoroid" tuner buttons. I guess I will add three of these - uniformity of tuner buttons seem hard to achieve here, or what do you folks think?
The pickup is really cool:
The wooden handrest/pickup cover looks original to me. The fit is perfect.
This photo of a similar model seems to confirm that the wooden cover is original (half of it remaining):
It may have been repainted though, as there is a bit of black paint on the pickup (or could this be a slight bit of factory clumsiness?):
That photo brings me to the big MYSTERY or this lap steel. The fretboard is made of some sort of sheet metal (visible where the black paint has flaked off) that seems to have expanded! 
How on Earth can this have happened, and what on Earth can I do about it?!?
The nut also needs to be adjusted:
Any thoughts on this? Has anyone come across this before?
Also, has anyone got any advise on how to turn the tuners that have no buttons? A piece of protective cloth and pliers? I would love to string it up with new strings before I start work on this to get to play it properly! I have plugged in and played the ancient strings one by one and it sounds fantastic!
This is a pretty sight for sure:
All the best,
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 5 Jul 2007 6:57 pm
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Fred: when I first looked at the fingerboard I thought it might be creeping as humidity and variations in temperature had worked on the glue over the years. However, it seems that the metal relative to the body has expanded at both ends. This means that either the fingerboard is longer than when it was first fitted or the body is smaller. Either way it's buckling because it has nowhere else to expand. The question is just how loose is the fingerboard ? If it can be completely removed without damage to it or to the body then it can be flattened after removal by pressing it to something dead straight using a large number of sping-loaded clips (not c-clamps). After straightening, do some crucial measurements. Is the distance from the nut (after you've straightened it) to the twelfth fret exactly the distance from the twelfth fret to the bridge ? When you replace it is has to be in that position to play in tune.
When I build instruments from scratch I stick masking tape on the wood. That allows me to make all the measurements and mark positions in pencil.
Personally, I would buy a complete set of tuner buttons from Stew-Mac. The originals obviously can't be saved, and it looks odd unless they're all the same. Stew-Mac recommends that they be heat-fitted. Basil reckons he's force-fitted them. When I renewed the buttons on two Multi-Kords earlier this year I sent them away to be done, as I wasn't sure of my ability to do it. |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 5 Jul 2007 11:39 pm
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That's a Supro pick-up, used for a dozen or more brands made by Valco. I'm surprised that it was used on their National brand.
It may take some heat, like a hair dryer, to soften the fret board so that it will lay flat. It will be too springy in it's present state, to get it flat.
The white plastic buttons from Stewmac will have instructions with them if you ask for them. Order an extra for trying the first time. |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 12:38 am
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Thanks for your input Alan and Bill!
Regarding the tuner buttons, I would like to have an all matching set of knobs, but I wonder how I can remove the metal buttons, including the "home-made" one. The tuners are Klusons, three-on-a-plate. Any ideas?
The Stew-Mac buttons I have are the hard ivoroid ones, not the ones to which heat is applied. I think some drilling and epoxy is the way to fit these - will read the Stew-Mac instructions carefully.
The fretboard is the trickiest bit. As you rightly point out, the entire fretboard is longer (or the corresponding length of the body shorter) than it ought to be. However, the screws that hold it down mean that certain "key" frets, such as the 5th and the 12th, are firmly in position. I will string it up with new strings to determine how things sound pitch-wise. I guess the fact that the nut needs adjusting is to my advantage as I have some scale lenght adjustment to play with there.
I am starting to wonder if I should simply leave the fretboard the way it is? There is no way this piece of metal could be straightened (and thereby extending its lenght) and fit in between the nut and the pickup, and the screw holes would all be slightly out of place after the adjustment. Also, I fear that more of the black paint would fall off from the straightening process. The bent metal feels very stiff. What do you think about this?
Many thanks for your time folks!
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 2:25 am
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Fred, if I'm not mistaken, there is ANOTHER pickup under the fretboard that's wired to the selector switch and comes on when "Chimes" is selected.
(Or am I thinking of another guitar)
A hot soldering iron should remove the buttons, they are soft soldered on. Read the Stew-Mac instructions carefully. They know how to do the job.
Baz
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 8:08 am
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| Fred: I share your concerns that straightening out the fingerboard might cause some of the paint to flake off, given its age, and, as I've found trying to touch up a Multi-Kord fingerboard which has flaked, you can never get it to look like the original. One thing to bear in mind is that the screws which hold the fingerboard in place don't have to hold it. If the screws are the only thing holding the fingerboard in place then removal without damaging the instrument becomes simple. If you do flatten out the fingerboard, and the holes don't line up, you can fix the fingerboard with glue and not use the screws. If the holes for the screws are too conspicuous you can always cover them with screw heads with the shaft part removed. |
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Chris Drew
From:
Bristol, UK
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 8:38 am
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Hey Fred, another nice ebay score there! Ah, to know the history of these old guitars... if only they could tell their story!
Hope you can sort those tuners out, that soldered-on button should come off easy enough with a bit of heat. ( Obviously remove the tuners before doing this! )
As mentioned in the earlier replies, bending the fretboard straight again will probably lose some more paint off there, so easy does it.
Retouching can be done but it's fiddly.
Use thinned model-maker's enamel, which should flow nicely into the previously painted sections ( I'm guessing that the fretboard had raised "embossed" fret-lines etc. ) Once the coverage is there build up the thickness with unthinned enamel until it's a bit thicker than it needs to be.
Then wait till it's completely set/cured, hard enough to "cut back" with fine grit sandpaper, follow with polishing compound & you should end up with a nice smooth finish.
You'll probably need to polish the whole fretboard though as you'll end up with the retouched sections looking obviously new next to the original finish.
As for the length, just make sure nut-to-fret12 = fret12-to-bridge. You're right, you can always move the nut!
Good luck with your refurb! Can't wait to hear it!! |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 9:12 am
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If they're standard Kluson tuners, you should consider replacing the entire tuner strip with new ones. Save the old ones for potential resale.
I'm almost certain the original pickup cover was plastic, not wood. I've never seen a Valco-made lap steel with a wooden pickup cover, but then again, I've never seen a New Yorker style lap steel with a Supro style pickup.
_________________
Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 11:45 am
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| Brad Bechtel wrote: |
If they're standard Kluson tuners, you should consider replacing the entire tuner strip with new ones. Save the old ones for potential resale.
I'm almost certain the original pickup cover was plastic, not wood. I've never seen a Valco-made lap steel with a wooden pickup cover, but then again, I've never seen a New Yorker style lap steel with a Supro style pickup. |
Yep, the Kluson strips under the covers are really nice - great condition. I just strung the guitar and they hold the tuning just fine.
The wooden pickup cover is a funny detail. The perfect fit and the picture of the other New Yorker - also with a Supro pickup - that has two wooden pieces, like mine but without the top bit, makes me think it is an original feature. Any other thoughts on this?
Yes, the Supro pickup! Now I understand why people make such a fuss about these. I just plugged this lap steel into my Microcube with headphones (there's a sleeping baby next door, so I'll have to wait until tomorrow before trying it loud) and this pickup sounds soooooo good with overdrive! I tried it before through my Fender Blues Junior and it sounded really cool, very dynamic response to bare fingers (I only played the top two strings, as they were the only of the old strings it came with that were up to pitch).
It's funny - I now have three National New Yorkers, and they all have radically different pickups and sound characteristics:
1937 - "blade" bridge pickup and two concealed pickups under the fretboard. Full, warm tone and incredible depth.
1941 - this one. String-through Supro-style pickup - really edgy and raw tone.
1947 - a more "standard" single coil bridge pickup. Really cool and warm tone - something in between the other two.
It seems strange that a lap steel model would keep a similar appearance but having such different electronics through the years. I think there was this huge pickup later in the 1950s too.
Anyway - the good news about the bent fretboard and the leaning nut is that this lap steel plays perfectly in pitch as it is!
One of the screws holding the pickup/bridge unit is completely loose, so when string tension is applied the bridge shifts a millimeter or so, making the treble side of the scale slightly shorter than the bass side. This doesn't seem to cause any pitch problems though (I guess that's the way saddles on "normal" guitars are compensated?). I have a pretty good ear for pitch and this lap steel plays great!
So I guess it will be a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" regarding the fretboard. Would any of you try to fix it? The main thing for me is that the guitar is playable, and it sure is.
I will think about what Brad said about getting new entire strips of tuners. I might have a crack at putting new buttons on these, but there's no rush. I brought the strings on the button less tuners up to pitch with pliers, and after 20 minutes or so of playing the guitar is still in tune.
They made things to last back then.
Thanks everyone for your time and advise, and by all means keep it coming!
Have a great weekend!
All the best,
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 9:16 pm
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| I wasn't aware that the fret board was metal. That's an early model isn't it? If waxed paper us used on each side of the board when pressing it flat, it may work for you. Losing a little paint may be the alternative to having a wavy board, and like Alan sez,not easy to touch-up. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 6 Jul 2007 9:47 pm
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The New Yorker was made for almost the entire run of the National company, and it underwent a lot of changes, most notably the electronics. The guitar was made from the late 1930's until 1967. It's pretty obvious, but the New Yorker was designed as a tribute to New York's Empire State Building, built in the early '30, with it's stairstep sides and deco design.
A classic guitar! I had a 1941 New Yorker like the one pictured with the metal fretboard and Roman numeral markers. On the early ones there were 3 pickups. One pickup was visible and the other two were hidden under the fretboard. The 3-way tone control for Hawaiian-Chimes-Harp was actually a pickup selector switch for the pickups.
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 8 Jul 2007 10:52 am
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REMOVED
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"Wisdom does not always come with age. Many times age arrives alone."
Last edited by Michael Lee Allen on 28 Feb 2011 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Kinbom
From:
Berlin, Germany, via Stockholm, Sweden.
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Posted 9 Jul 2007 12:38 pm
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Thanks for the historical notes Doug and Michael!
I have now replaced the tuner buttons with replacements from Stewart-MacDonald.
Before:
After:
No glue nor heat needed (will post info on how I went about it in a recent thread about replacing old buttons).
As the intonation is fine as it is, I will leave the nut and fretboard as they are for now.
Thanks everyone for the info!
Cheers,
Fred
_________________
www.fredrikkinbom.com - New lap steel album out now - listen here: fredrikkinbom.bandcamp.com/album/songs-for-lap-steel-and-harmonium |
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