How to get fullest sound from a lap

Malcolm Leonard · From: Rhode Island, USA

I am brand new here so if my questions seem dumb they probably are!
In listening to steel from the 40's to the present time,I am hearing a sound that keeps getting stronger,richer and fuller as the years go by.
The older amplified steels sound thin,and sometimes similar to an unamplified dobro.
Then,in the 50's Don Helms gets a strong, fuller,"thicker"sound as does Roy Wiggins,also.
Some 2005 ultra modern pedal steel is so rich and full it sounds almost like a church organ.
What techniques and equipment will give the strongest,fullest,richest heaviest sound from a lap steel?
Thanks,
Malcolm Leonard

[This message was edited by Malcolm Leonard on 25 May 2005 at 08:49 PM.]

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

I think Jerry Byrd's sound can be classified as being on the fuller, richer, thicker, heavier end of the scale.

Forumite Ray Montee is a master at achieving that tone formula (I've heard it with my own ears in person) so I hope he'll reply here.

The instrument has a lot to do with it, although I think any steel can be made to sound "thick" with a certain amp setup. I think the challenge is getting the thick without getting muddy.

I have yet to conclude whether it is better to get an inherently thick/heavy sounding instrument and use the amp to make it articulate/cut... or to get a thinner instrument with cutting tone and use the amp to thicken it.

*****

Oh, forgot to mention... picking away from the bridge will avoid that thin twangy sound. One of the first lessons I learned from Bobby Ingano was to pick midway between the bar and the bridge for the fullest sound. We play Hawaiian music mostly, so that is just one approach of course.

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 25 May 2005 at 10:54 PM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A nice old Stringmaster and a old 50's 30w tube amp will be nice.
But not always available.

Don Helms used a Gibson Console Grand, and they can still be found.

But for new Superslide and a Fender Hot Rod Junior, or Vox VT 30
Dan Tyacks choice of amp would be cool too.
He gets a warm fat sound from the THD BiValve

I think part of the reason the sound improved was partly amps and pickups getting better,
and partly recording mics getting better.

Dan records through an unusual AEA ribbon mic
part new and part retro.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 May 2005 at 11:12 PM.]

Terje Larson · From: Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden

There is a lap steel guitar player on T-Bone Walker's first electric recording (where he did not play guitar himself) that has a really fat and full tone and that recording is from the early 40's. Don't knowthe name of the musician in question. Could try to check it out if you want to know.

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If you can't hear the others you're too loud, if you can't hear yourself you've gone deaf

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I've played Joaquin Murphey's old Bigsby thru a Nashville 400 and it sounds thick,clear and full like a modern steel - nothing like it did on those old records(which I also liked BTW).I believe it's the amps that have gotten more and more hi-fi over the years.

Bill Leff · From: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Funny, I think of the older steel recordings as thicker sounding than the newer ones. When I hear Dick McIntire, Sol Hoopii (on electric), Andy Iona, Johnny Pineapple's steel player, etc they sound way ballsier than the newer stuff to my ears. I'm always trying to get that kind of sound today and find it very difficult to do as the amps and recordings are so much more hi-fi.

Jeff Au Hoy · From: Honolulu, Hawai'i

In a studio setting, I like to mike the amp at least 5 feet away to let it breathe. No reverb. I think that's the way to get the classic McIntire amp-in-a-cardboard-box sound. It doesn't work live, of course. Engineers nowadays like to stick the mike right up to the speaker, I don't know why. Who the heck listens to an amp from that close in real life?

[This message was edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 26 May 2005 at 02:51 PM.]

seldomfed · From: Colorado

What??, what??, I can't hear you, let met turn down this amp next to my ear

Ray Montee · From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)

Malcomb.......have you spent "any time" at all listening to the fabulous steel guitar sounds of Jerry Byrd on the jerrybyrdfanclub.com web site?

No guessing is required.... He always had a rich, full-bodied tone, certainly nothing anyone could ever call "thin". In those early days, he used that old Volu-Tone amp, with an 8 or 10 inch speaker without reverb.

Those small amps and OLDE guitars, having been made for each other seem to respond quite well sixty years later and that rich, thick TONE is still there to be enjoyed.

Don Helms has a "fat tone"??? Are you sure?

Thanks Jeff for the kind words and for remembering this olde mainlander. You described the situation quite well. Your comments are a welcome factor here on this Forum. Keep up the great contributions.

Malcolm Leonard · From: Rhode Island, USA

Hi Ray,
Thanks for the Jerry Byrd information.No,I have not heard those and I will definitely check them out.
Malcolm

Malcolm Leonard · From: Rhode Island, USA

Thanks to Bobbe and all others who responded to my post!
Malcolm

Gerald Ross · From: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

I agree with Bill Leff. The recordings of Sol Hoopii and Dick McIntire are fatter than a pork rinds dipped in mayonaise.

Was it the recording technology back then that gave such a compressed sound? The 5 watt amplifiers?

This topic comes up at least twice a year on this forum.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Nothing real technical here.
If it is a Fender lap, plug it into a Fender tube amp. Leo designed these rascals to complement each other.

I believe that as the recording equip and methods improved, more of the signal made it on to the recording medium.

hope this helps

Ron

Barry Hartzell · From: Pa suburbs near Philly

Hi folks,

I just joined because I heard some steel on a Gabby recording, King of the Slack Key guitar, vol 1. The song is titled Lei No Ka`iulani. Here is the link to the page on Mele.com and then the shortcut link:
http://mele.com/v3/info/609.htm http://64.65.106.62/v3/sbits4/609_10.ram

I posted this in another thread, and Jeff Au Hoy was good enough to let me know it was actually David Feet Rogers on that tune, and gave me the tuning Feet used.

I believe that is a fat, full tone on this song, and it's my inspiration to play plugged in, which I didn't think would ever happen. I've been an acoustic advocate until I heard Feet play!

So, I've just started my quest for that tone, or close, and I've learned a lot from this thread too.

Thanks to all!

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