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Topic: Compatible Chord Frames And Melodies |
Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 22 Apr 2007 3:29 pm |
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| Melody lines originate from a sequence of notes from a chord frame. Selecting Proper chords will simplify finding correct melodies. Is this a fair assumption? |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 12:52 am
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| It's a good thing to be occupied with a variety of interests these days. I say that for reasons that relate to sluggish responses that have become more evident with the passing of time. In the absence of a "goldrush" of opportunities, my simplistic beckoning of responses heads down a dead end dirt road. This latest topic is as relevant as any thread on the forum, (I feel) and the evidence shows that it was ignored. As I've stated, getting involved with a variety of constructive activities, assures my bond with the steel guitar. Friends who stop by frequently, helps to keep the music interests unblemished. For that, I'll always be thankful.. |
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David Collins
From:
Madison, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 3:14 am
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Bill,
While I'm certainly NOT the worlds' foremost authority on music theory, I have to disagree somewhat.
As I understand things, melodies are built using a series of notes from a scale, rather than a particular chord or chord frame. The chord and/or chord frame are the result of the HARMONY notes that are used/written/played within the melody to create a certain "mood" or "feeling" within the piece.
Try playing any simple melody with one string, one note at a time. You will find that there are no chords being played, therefore whichever "frame" you draw from to get the proper MELODY note works. Now add in the correct HARMONY notes as you play the melody, chords and chord frames become much more important now.
I'm very interested to see where this goes as well. I most certainly leave room for correction if I'm wrong.
_________________
David Collins
www.chjoyce.com |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 7:17 am
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David C.,
It appears as though a demonstration with chord frames that utilize the dimished 7th's or minor sixes, may go much further than words to reestablish true melody lines. Getting close to a fellow steel guitarist's techniques of expressing melodies, opens up a new train of thought, that exceeds descript or wordy explanations. A single note can represent a minor chord, whereas 4 strings played simultaneously (Dim.7th) is far superior in carrying recognizable melodies. Chord melody IMHO is far superior to single note attacks in the carrying of melody lines. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:16 am
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| Quote: |
| Melody lines originate from a sequence of notes from a chord frame. |
Sometimes...  ...but often songwriters come up with the melody first, and then search for chords within the key to harmonize with that melody. Naturally the chords and the melody are both built on the Scales.
Some songwriters may start with the chords and then create a melody around those chords, but from what I have seen in the music biz it usually works the other way: melody first, chords second. There is no right or wrong way. People create in different ways.
I agree that diminished chords and extended chords may be used to "reharmonize" a melody and create a different flavor. I'm not sure I would use those voicings as a basis to create a melody, although one could certainly do that.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:26 am
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| Quote: |
| Melody lines originate from a sequence of notes from a chord frame. Selecting Proper chords will simplify finding correct melodies. |
Melody lines are a sequence of notes. A chord sequence could suggest a melody line. Melody and harmony is essentially "vertical thinking", melody is linear thinking. Melody and harmony, as we practice it today, in "normal" music, started in western music pretty much after 1750.
| Quote: |
| A single note can represent a minor chord, |
A single note, is a single note. It can imply a minor chord if it is part of a sequence that "outlines" a minor chord. And in that regard, it's the sequence that represents the minor chord.
| Quote: |
| whereas 4 strings played simultaneously (Dim.7th) is far superior in carrying recognizable melodies. |
This doesn't make any sense. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:37 am
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| Quote: |
| Sometimes... Wink ...but often songwriters come up with the melody first, and then search for chords within the key to harmonize with that melody. Naturally the chords and the melody are both built on the Scales. |
I haven't done much writing, but it's hard for me to imagine writing a melody in Western music without having at least the outline of the intended harmony in mind simultaneously. To me it's implicit, part and parcel of the melody itself. YMMV |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:51 am
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As do many other six-string (or former six-string) players, I base melodies around a chordal framework. There have been several discussions about "box" positions, which are in essence based around particular chord positions. I can't play a scale to save my life, but I can find or improvise melody lines using a chord form as a "base of operations".
But it seems to me most steelers use scales as their "base" for melody lines. It's not a case of right or wrong - just two different approaches. Unfortunately, those firmly rooted in either end of the spectrum may have trouble understanding explanations based on the other system. I know that when melody discussions go into scale and mode explanations, I feel like I'm reading Swedish; and it's been apparent from past threads many scale-based players don't really grasp the chord-framework system.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 12:03 pm
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Jim, I think you are mistaken about most steel players basing their thinking around scales. I think most E9th pedal steel players, which is the majority of steel players (no value judgment there) base their licks around the "no pedals" position, the "pedals(A&B) down" position, the "E lowers only" position, etc., much like guitar "boxes".
Where I think you may get misled is that perhaps, because of the lack of visual "pictures" of the positions, with so many note changes going on underneath the guitar, steel players may have more of a tendency to learn "theory" terminology to get a handle on the pathways to travel. But a "scale" in that context is not something you play, it's a "list" of notes you choose from. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 5:25 pm
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Here's an interesting quote from a Songwiting site. It relates to writing music, not lyrics:
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| Some songwriters write the melody first. Some prefer to come up with the chord progression first and then write the melody. And still others prefer to come up with a rhythm or groove first and then write the melody and chord progression. There is no one correct way to write a song. However, if you're someone who always writes the melody first, try coming up with a chord progression first. Or, see if you can get yourself into a different groove by programming a beat on your drum machine and writing to a rhythm. |
We all create in different ways. In my mind it starts with melody, and the chords come next. It might be different for different genres of music. If someone is writing heavy metal, he might start with a pattern of power chords, beats, accents, and a riff, and come up with a 'melody' last.
E9 pedal steel guitar... It seems to me that the great instrumentalists base their melodies on scales, harmonized scales, and riffs. Original steel tunes like Blue Jade and Hotfoot come to mind. I'm sure there are many other examples. To me, starting out with a chord pattern and writing a melody to it seems backwards, but that's just me
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 5:33 pm
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To me, you can go in either direction. A melody stands on its own, without any particular harmonization. Then, as Doug suggests, one can harmonize, and then reharmonize it different ways.
On the other hand, the leading voices in a chord progression can suggest a melody. To me, really good harmony involves voice leading which suggests the melody or some variation.
So I think both views are legitimate ways to think about it, and not necessarily contradictory.
Edited to add - Doug's last post came up while typing. I agree with most everything said there, although I don't really see starting with a chord progression as "backwards". I also think that the true beauty of pedal steel is how naturally chord-melody fits into its framework. I hammered at this on guitar off and on for a while, and a lot of concepts came together only after I started playing steel. |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 8:40 pm
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Maybe I'm over-thinking this because I don't use melody and harmony, in a traditional sense, in my own stuff. And this can be a chicken/egg thing. Did the melody or the chord sequence come first? or do they happen at the same time.
I basically look at melody, if there is one, as the flow that keeps the music going. Whether it's early music or contemporary and pretty much everything in between, classical or pop.
Back in the Baroque times, there might have been a series of melodies, that were all happening at he same time. They might be outlining chords and as they all went by, and they also created the incidental harmony. The thing was they were all headed in the same direction, like bus routes, going to the cadence.
Melodies, in that regard, are destination oriented.
Go back about a hundred years to the 12-tone music and the melody might have been a series of intervals. A melody of distances between notes. A totally different concept where the actual note pitches weren't as important as the intervals between them, but still it was a melody.
Speaking for myself, I simply look at a melody as having a life span, from the beginning to the end.
I usually work with phrases. Each phrase has a life span. These are then assembled in time, overlapping each other, as a composition. So it's kind of like a small town where all of the inhabitants live out their lives and the resultant harmonies and textures are the composition. It's a pretty simplistic concept, by today's standards, but I think the simple stuff has a strong resonance. |
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Mark Wayne
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:20 pm
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Bill,
You are absolutely right to assume that melodies can be developed from chords. Arpeggio phrases are a perfect example of this. I practice T, 2, T, 2, exercises implementing arpeggio-type runs over 6th, 7th, #5's, add 9's and other combinations.
"Chord scales" can also be used to make melodies. The first 2 measures to "The Andy Griffith Show Theme" and the first 4 measures of "Elpaso" by Marty Robbins are examples of chord scales going from a 1 to a 2 minor.
Another example, and a great way to learn runs on C6 up to and including speed picking are to take some of the chord styles of Don Helms' playing, and chop them into single note melodies. Remember... one of Curly Chalker's inspirations was Jerry Byrd, and I'd be willing to bet a broken 3rd string that he used that concept to some degree.
_________________
Mark Wayne Krutke
****markwayne.biz**** |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:38 pm
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Chas's first post I agree with.
As a song writer I mostly start with a song theme,
lyrically
and that quickly gives me a chord grid styling choice.
After that I sing over the words
and work some chords around what I want to sing.
As a composer I can often start with a chord progression,
because I want to write in that style.
After I have arranged my A section,
and often the B section also,
I then tease melodies out of the harmonization.
As I am writing the chord progression, I am often
hearing a melodic set of variations within the chords.
This can lead to very dense melodies,
but no matter It takes it natural course
till it's finished.
Sometimes this requires extending the chord framework, or even shortening it.
Sometimes it ALSO means adding C and D and even E sections.
When I write steel stuff it has been based from chords
more than from melody. I guess this is atypical,
but I came to PSG from through C6 and jazz
and not from country licks.
So my approach was much different from the git go.
On mandolin I tend to write from the melody and put chords to fit.
But sometimes I write a mando chord grill
and then find the melody.
Each instrument and each composition is
influenced by different factors.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 10:40 pm
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When I am jotting down notes for a new tune, I can assure you that I am not thinking about chords. My mind is working on blending notes and making smooth transitions between those notes that make up a melody.
Some people say that you cannot create a melody that does not come from a chord structure. I tend to believe the opposite; chords are a result of a melody. |
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Bill Hankey
From:
Pittsfield, MA, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 2:18 am
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| I am simply blown away by the influx of so many talented steel guitarists on this forum. The clever entries have surpassed my expectations. It's difficult to question a particular response in the midst of such knowledgeable replies. My thoughts are centered on a single note issue. Any note is crammed full of potential. You may modify or expand on its potentiality. While using a bar to produce tones, as on the steel guitar, or Dobro, it is possible to expand on the tonality to a musical advantage. Dramatizing the little predictions that an exact tone is imminent, by ascending or descending glisses, that accent the beauty of a rich tone, can be rewarding. A simple change in the expressive values of note patterns can enrichen musical expression. Artists may choose a similar method, while attempting to change tempos, by intoducing a different approach to a melody. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 6:53 am Re: Compatible Chord Frames And Melodies
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| Bill Hankey wrote: |
| Melody lines originate from a sequence of notes from a chord frame. Selecting Proper chords will simplify finding correct melodies. Is this a fair assumption? |
I take this to mean Bill is asking if finding the right chord progression on steel helps one find and play the melody of an existing song (as opposed to writing a new song). I think the answer is usually "yes, definitely." This has to do with the comments of Jim Sliff and Brint. It is hardly ever satisfying to play a single note melody with no harmony. Therefore, to play an existing melody, one needs to not just find the melody note, but to find it at a good fret and pedal/lever combination to provide the appropriate harmony (in other words, the chord frame). Furthermore, on pedal steel, at a given position, the extra strings, pedals, and levers provide all or some of a scale with some chromatic accidentals. Therefore, being at a good position makes more scale notes available for melody playing than if one is at a poor position. So being at a good position utilizing the chord progression facilitates both finding harmony and finding easy to reach melody notes.
The positions I am speaking of are the same ones Brint refers to: open pedal, AB combination, AF, BC, E lower, A pedal minor, etc. They are the equivalent of Jim Sliff's guitar boxes. But as we have discussed before, they don't form much of a visual two-dimensional fretboard pattern, because one is not putting fingers down in a pattern, but is instead laying a straight bar across a single fret. One could consider the pedal and lever changes to be the 3rd dimension (and that's why tab works better than fretboard diagrams). |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 7:18 am
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| Quote: |
| (and that's why tab works better than fretboard diagrams). |
-in most cases. 
For me at least, the fretboard diagrams which show the so called "boxes" have been very very useful and far easier to understand than tab for the non-pedal patterns that allow one to transition from one "pedal position" to another, or to make single note lap style runs. I agree tho , they are not useful for showing anything involving pedal or lever movement. all of which has zero to do with the topic at hand (frankly I have a difficult time understanding what the topic is here in this thread)...sorry for the diversion. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 7:39 am
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| Right, Ben. I remember seeing a Buddy Emmons article in an old steel magazine in which he had some fretboard diagrams to show some C6 jazz bar movements in pockets and between positions. They can be useful for C6 jazz licks, open string stuff in E or A on E9, or single string transitions between positions. So there is a place for those. But they are not the be-all and end-all they are on 6-string. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 8:09 am
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| wow, thats a wild one Doug...I dont have a guitar in front of me to try that out, but would that be the major scale in G? |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 9:07 am
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A good example of melody vs chords making it work is
Antonio Carlos Jobim's "One Note Samba".
In Bb key starting on the third degree of the key D(m).
The melody for the A section is just
an F note for 7 1/2 measures
with chords under it :
Dm7 | Db7 | Cm7 | B7(b5) |
Dm7 | Db7 | Cm7 | B7(b5) |
In measure 8 on beat three it moves to a Bb note.
over | Fm7 | Bb7 | Ebmaj7 | Ab7 |
Measure 12 on beat 3 it goes back to F
Dm7 | Db7 | Cm7 B7(b5) | Bb6 |
Very simple almost salsa like rythm in the one note melody,
but the chord changes make the whole think work.
Of course the melody REALLY breaks loose in the B section.
Ebm7 | Ab7 | Dbmaj7 | Dbmaj7 |
Dbm7 | Gb7 | Cbmaj7 | C dim B7(b5) |
So really the chords and syncopation
determined when the 2 notes of the melody were changed.
Looking at the decending chords:
F is bIII of Dm7
F is III of Db7
F is V of Cm7
F is bV of B7(b5) |
Bb is V of Fm7
Bb is I of Bb7
Bb is V of Eb7
Bb is II of Ab7 Which is the greatest tension
just before it resolves back to the opening chord.
And all in all quite beautifully.
I haven't heard any steeler do it,
but I think it might work well on steel.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
Last edited by David L. Donald on 24 Apr 2007 9:16 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 9:09 am
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Bummer man, its all C6th 
Thanks for postin that anyway Doug. Its nice to know that the maestro is thinking along similar lines as a newb like myself. Granted he is flying and i am crawling but still.....
I dont suppose he ever outlined anything similar for E9th? |
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Joe Savage
From:
St. Paul, MN
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Posted 24 Apr 2007 9:20 am Re: Compatible Chord Frames And Melodies
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| Bill Hankey wrote: |
| Melody lines originate from a sequence of notes from a chord frame. Selecting Proper chords will simplify finding correct melodies. Is this a fair assumption? |
Sometimes, melody notes fall outside of the "chord frame" or as in the "One Note Samba", lots of chord motion, not much melody. Also depends on where the melody note is within the chord voicing.
(Funny, I hadn't seen DLD's One Note Samba reference until after I posted. I was working on it this morning!!)
Last edited by Joe Savage on 24 Apr 2007 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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