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Topic: Oddball pedal behavior |
Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 10:28 am |
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Here's one I haven't seen before. Groggily wiring pedals into the effects loop, put the compressor first, into the Holy Grail, into the HK Rotovibe. Nothing works. Take the compressor out. Nothing works. Swap the Rotovibe and Holy Grail order (HK first, HG second). Now both work.... I'm still too groggy to figure this out, but I've never seen this before.
-eric |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 11:06 am
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| I want to look to the power supply polarity for an answer because of the tip-pos of the Grail---I once had some issues because of a non-isolated ground in another pedal that conflicted with the Grail, causing nothing to work even though they were on different power supplies. Grounds at the signal jacks were conflicting. But the H&K runs on AC from its adaptor so I don't know..... I don't have time right now but later on, if you don't find a simple answer, I'll try to recreate your situation with a Grail & a Roto and see what happens. FWIW, I have used the Grail & the Roto together a lot with no problems. But the Grail always goes last in my chain. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 1:49 pm
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Well, I went and rigged them both ways---
---steel>Grail>Roto>amp
---steel>Roto>Grail>amp
No problems, no differences other than sonic ones.
So the only remaining conclusion is: you are crazy.
Next patient. |
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 2:12 pm
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Thanks. Being crazy is entirely possible. Will check again and get back.
-eric  |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 2:17 pm
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Just in the interests of thoroughness---what fx loop? In the amp? What amp?
Some of my best ward mates are insane. |
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 3:00 pm
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fx loop in a Revelation Preamp. Not the pre-stage (vol pedal) loop but the secondary parallel loop.
-eric |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 3:31 pm
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Ah. Why didn't you say so. It's Brad's fault.
Beyond that, I'm clueless. |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 7:33 pm
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You guys make a fine pair. Eric is crazy and Jon is clueless. I'd hang with you guys anytime!
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 8:16 pm
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You'd be welcome!
-eric |
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 19 Apr 2007 8:26 pm
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You'd be welcome!
-eric
oops. double post. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2007 5:36 am
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Ah shoot, I was thinking it might be my fault. Well let's see here. Not sure yet, but I would point out that you're using two instrument level guitar pedals in a loop that's designed for line level devices. Anything in that rear loop is meant to be run at 100% wet, primarily a rackmount reverb and/or delay. I'd be inclined to actually use both the Rotosphere and the HG in the front, volume pedal loop with devices in this order:
Guitar - Preamp's 1st input - out to Volume Pedal - into Rotosphere - into Holy Grail - back into Preamp's front panel return.
This does rule out running the Rotospere in stereo since at that stage of the preamp, all is still mono. I know of another person who tried to run a Rotosphere in the rear loop, and there were level issues because really, it's a guitar pedal, not a line-level effects unit. I would also guess that the Holy Grail may have trouble with having enough headroom and output to properly run in that rear loop.
Keep in mind that the rear loop is designed for parallel use, NOT series as found in most situations. That means any effect back there needs to be run at 100% wet, full effect, no dry signal. Then that effect(s) gets mixed in with the guitar signal with the Rev's FX knob. This setup is identical to how an effects return operates on a mixing board. This can put some limits on how effects are run back there. The only things I run in that rear loop are reverb and delay, and they must be set up in the effects unit itself to operate in parallel, not series, and at 100% wet, zero dry signal.
Brad |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2007 8:44 am
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Brad,
Can you define Series and Parallel as they apply to effect linking?
What is the difference, purpose, etc.
The only place I have seen those terms (with regard to linking effects) is in the Profex II, and I'm still not sure what the difference and purpose for either method is for.
Does this apply to stomp box effects?
Thanks in advance for the clarification!
Pete B. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 20 Apr 2007 3:26 pm
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Pete.
Let me make a distinction. I'm talking actually about two different parallel situations. One is that the two effects are running in parallel. The other situation is the nature of the effect loop itself. With the Rev's loop, parallel applies to both situations
An example of "series" effects would be if you had a multi effects unit, ran your entire signal thru it, and had a delay effect, and then after the delay effect your signal would then pass thru a reverb effect. In this setup, there is always a bit of the dry signal, and the effects are blended along with it. This is the most common setup. Now if you ran series like this, but only had the effects with no dry signal, then the only thing that would come out of the delay effect would be the echoes themselves, not the dry signal. That means that the reverb engine that follows wouldn't reverberate your played note, but it wouldn't start reverberation until it heard the first echo. This is a very weird sound obviously.
Two effects in parallel is when your signal goes into an effects unit, splits the signal to two paths. Each path has its own effect. One delay, one reverb. Then after the two effects do their affecting, the signals are mixed back together and sent to the output of the effects unit. Now in this case, you don't have the problem that you did with series when you make the signal 100% effect with no dry signal. This way the reverb doesn't have to wait for the first echo. Instead it starts reverberating as soon as the signal hits the fx unit. So with a parallel fx setup like this, you can dial in any balance of delay and/or reverb that you like.
Now the other "parallel" factor is the loop itself. In the Rev Pre, the dry signal never leaves the internal all-tube path. It simply sends a signal to an effects unit, and then with the Rev's "FX" knob, simply blends the effect unit's output along with the dry signal. So you preserve the pure tube and analog path of the steel guitar signal itself and never subject it to digital conversion and all the electronic stages that it would pass thru in a series setup. The only thing digital is the effect return. This is how a mixing board is typically set up. The FX knob on the Rev is actually an FX return. If you were to send a dry signal thru an FX unit and blend it back into the Rev with the FX knob, you'd get some real ugly, comb filtered and phase shifted artifacts. This is because a digital effects unit has latency. it takes it a few milliseconds to do its processing. You don't notice this in series, but when you blend the slightly late signal with the original dry signal, it gets ugly.
So it takes an effects unit that will easily run delay and reverb side by side (in parallel)to work right with the Rev. Gerry Walker did something real cool in his Stereo Steel preamps where it allows you to switch between a series or parallel loop. My setup in the Rev didn't really allow that so easily.
Brad |
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Eric Jaeger
From:
Oakland, California, USA
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Posted 23 Apr 2007 11:37 am
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As an admission of unbelievable stupidity, the issue was a broken cable that was used in one configuration but not the other...
Sometimes the brain just shuts off
-eric |
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