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Topic: ???>For Buddy Emmons |
Marvin Stegall
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 12:51 am |
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| Buddy i was reading that you tune straight up 440>>Now i do not know if you meant all your strings>and pedal raise's would be straight up or what . i can not see how ,or do not understand how you would be in tune with a key board . when middle >> C is 261.626Hz >> and they change from the first key on through . help me out here. THANKS |
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Paul King
From:
Gainesville, Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 4:20 am 440
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| Marvin, I have wondered the same thing but never asked. I would imagine Buddy does not tune the pedals and levers to 440. It will be interesting to find out the answer. |
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 4:20 am Humm?
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Marvin: your could also ask Tommy Hannum how this works, I am sure he could help here.
Just call me 'Ol 440 Ernie'  |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 6:22 am
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Why not tune everything to 440? When you use the bar, you have to play in tune by ear anyway. The fret markers on most guitars are at least 1/8" wide, what do you shoot for? The center, the left side, or the right side? The bar is round, usually 7/8" diameter which is pretty hard to see around, especially on the higher frets, so the bottom line is, you have to constantly "tune" by ear as you're playing anyway. I've seen players spend a half hour tuning and they still couldn't play in tune. I'm sure they thought everyone else was out of tune.
Just my opinion, and what do I know. 
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 6:31 am
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Well said, Darvin. That's a large dose of common sense applied to this much-discussed subject...
RR |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 7:17 am
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Until Buddy chimes in,I will add that I've tried tuning straight up 440 and it just don't work for me personally.
One night at a club, without thinking,I accidently set my Peterson to 440 and tuned up. When the band kicked off the first song I nearly fell over wondering what in the world was wrong with my guitar.
After quickly retuning,it was the difference in night and day.
Last edited by Dick Wood on 6 Apr 2007 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 7:21 am
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| I just can't tolerate straight up thirds for some reason, the rest I can live with. |
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Ernie Pollock
From:
Mt Savage, Md USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 7:28 am tough one
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I have a video of Jeff Newman showing how to properly roll the tone bar, if you are tuned 440 on all your strings & pedal changes & use this bar rolling way that Newman taught, you should have no problems with tuning with the rest of the music world. But again, who am I?? If you like tuning to the flatt tuning, do it, who cares? As long as it floats your boat, we won't care!!
Ernie  |
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Dick Wood
From:
Springtown Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 7:38 am
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| Since I can't tune or type. Where's the EDIT button gone to? Never mind,it's back now. |
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Marvin Stegall
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 8:23 am
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| well > you know you hear everthing >about tuning>Itune in cents>not Hertz> All i got to say that it is a lot of bar rolling going on. A key board is tuned flat and sharp >> from one end to another> i just do not understand this way of doing>i hope that BUDDY will CHIME IN ON IT SO I WILL KNOW FOR SURE |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 8:37 am Re: ???>For Buddy Emmons
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| Marvin Stegall wrote: |
| Buddy i was reading that you tune straight up 440>>Now i do not know if you meant all your strings>and pedal raise's would be straight up or what . i can not see how ,or do not understand how you would be in tune with a key board . when middle >> C is 261.626Hz >> and they change from the first key on through . help me out here. THANKS |
Marvin is asking a different question than most people above are addressing. He is asking how BE (or anyone else) can tune everything to 440 Hz when only the A above middle C is 440 Hz, and every other note of the chromatic scale has a different frequency. Marvin, when people say everything is tuned straight up 440, they do not mean all notes are tuned to 440 Hz. They mean that all the notes are tuned to an Equal Temper scale with a reference pitch of A=440. This means that the A an octave lower is 220 Hz; and the A an octave above is 880 Hz. And all the notes in between are exactly 1/12 of the whole octave apart in their respective frequency. Thus, the Bb above the reference A would be 440 + ((880-440)/12) = 476.7 Hz. Some tuning meters allow the user to choose a different reference pitch for A, for example 442 Hz. Then the Bb would be calculated by 442 + ((884-442)/12) = 478.8 Hz.
By convention, tuning meters with a needle have 440 at the straight up 12:00 o'clock position. When tuning A above middle C, the Hz can be read off directly on that meter scale. For any other note, the frequency pointed to by the meter can be taken as the reference pitch that note is being tuned to, but it is not the actual frequency of the note. So when someone says their E is tuned to 442, that means the reference pitch is A=442, not that the E note has an actual frequency of 442.
When someone says they tune everything straight up 440, they are really saying two separate things. One is that they are using A=440 as their reference pitch, and the other is that they are using the Equal Temper (ET) scale divided into 12 equally spaced frequencies.
There are other ways to divide up the scale besides ET. Just Intonation (JI) sets the pitches according to their harmonic relationships to the reference pitch. This does not result in evenly spaced notes over the scale, but instead results in notes whose harmonics have minimal interference, which is perceived as tuning the beats out. Most people perceive chords and harmony made with such notes to sound purer or sweeter. The frequencies for JI notes can be calculated as simple whole number fractions of the root of the scale. For example, the 5th note of the scale is 3/2 times the root frequency. JI tuning also has to have a reference pitch. That pitch can be chosen as A=440, or some other frequency.
For an ET scale, a listing of the referenc pitches of the notes of that scale will have every note referenced to 440. There is a way to speak of JI scale notes by reading what reference pitch for A the meter needle is pointing to. Thus one might say he tunes his 3rds to 437. That is not the actual frequency of the note. It just means the note is tuned as if it were an ET note tuned to a reference of A=437. Most meters also read in cents. This divides and octave into 100 cents. A JI note tuned to 437 would be 3 Hz flat of ET. Around 440 Hz, 1 Hz equals about 4 cents. So the 437 note would be 3 x 4 = 12 cents flat of ET; or ET could be considered 12 cents sharp of that tuning. It is probably less confusing to use the cents scale. But small meters are easier to read on the Hz scale, and that's why this strange way of using the Hz scale is common.
Buddy Emmons has said he now mostly tunes everything straight up 440. But he has also said he sometimes tunes his 3rds a couple of Hz flat of straight up. That means he tunes them to a reference of 438, or 8 cents flat of ET. Unfortunately he has also said in other places that he tunes his 3rds a couple of cents flat. Which would be a reference of 439.5 Hz. This latter is such a small difference it doesn't make much sense. So I believe BE meant a couple of Hz. but he will have settle that himself.
Darvin, your comments apply to single string playing. But the minute you play a whole chord with the bar, you have to address the interval relationships of the different strings to each other. In any tuning containing a 3rd, 7th or 6th, etc., you have to choose between ET, JI or something in between. The conflict and controversy between ET and JI is always there for chords. However, if one is using a JI tuned chord, it is possible to "split the difference" over the fret so that the root and 5th are just sharp of ET, and the 3rd is just flat of ET, and this averaged result will sound okay when played along with a pure ET tuned instrument. Maybe that is what Jeff N. was talking about. |
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Morton Kellas
From:
Chazy, NY, USA 1
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 9:51 am
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David, your amazing. Where did you learn all this?
I always enjoy your postings. Thank's |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 10:29 am
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Well David, I have to disagree on the chord versus single string point also, how many of us can hold the bar perfectly square with the strings??? Unless you can, the chords are going to be slightly out of tune anyway. I still contend you have to constantly tune by ear to play one of these things.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Marvin Stegall
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 10:37 am tuning
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| thank you david very much . marvin |
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Robert Cates
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 11:12 am Thank you David
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I just have to chime in on this one. I think that this is a very good post. David has done an excellent job of explaining the tuning to us beginners. I have very little music theory in me and I find Davids explanation of what is happening when you tune to be interesting and I thank you David. I know that there has been a lot of talk on this matter and being a new guy I was following it all with great interest. Maybe..just maybe..some of it is starting to sink in now. Being a new guy on the psg I had no preferance as to how I tune so I was trying all different methods. (straight, Newman, and Larry Bells hybrid.) After all that I have gone back to the straight up tuning. I realise that I am a rookie at this but it seems best for me.
I think that this forum has been a god sent to me because I have taken a lot of good stuff from you "big boys"...Thanks again
Just call me "OLE 440 Bob"
Bob |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 4:34 pm
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Um...thanks guys, but I don't think I said anything above that many other musicians ans steelers don't know. I knew some if it from my music education playing piano, organ and sax. And some of it I've learned from the Forum and from being forced to do a little research on the internet. I think lot of people who know about this stuff would rather be playing or practicing than hanging out on the internet...and they're probably mostly better pickers than me.
Darvin, I'm not sure what we disagree about. Of course you have to play the bar by ear or you can't play steel guitar in tune. But what has that got to do with tuning ET or JI? Regardless of small discrepancies in keeping the bar straight or directly over the fret, I can assure you that if you play strings 4, 5 and 6 together on an E9 tuning, ET and JI will sound different to anyone with a good ear. |
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J PARKER
From:
Meridian Miss
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 7:18 pm
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| Well this is a good subject and i will add my tuning after most folks have hashed this out. I tune with a old korg wt10 tuner and have found this hertz tuning works very well. And i dont tune all 440 either. Jim |
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Allan Thompson
From:
Scotland.
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 3:03 am
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I asked Buddy at the Dallas show if he still tuned straight up 440 and his answer was " pretty close "
I hope Buddy sees this post and confirms this. |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 3:15 am
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An excellent explanation, David.
| Allan Thompson wrote: |
| I asked Buddy at the Dallas show if he still tuned straight up 440 and his answer was " pretty close " |
In the big world, it's all pretty close.
Yet sometimes I find myself counting cents, and wonder why.
Mike Perlowin says he tunes his thirds narrow by a couple of Hertz. It's a good place to start, and maybe even end.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Susan Alcorn
From:
Baltimore, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 6:44 am
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This is an interesting thread. I think that every steel guitarist has at one time or another given quite a lot of thought to the issue of tuning. David Doggett, of course, is correct in what he says.
At the heart of the matter, as I see it, is individual preference combined with what you need to accompish individually or as part of a group. If you're playing a style where you do mostly triads, the third can sound better slightly flat and the fifth a tad sharp. The six also sounds better slightly flat. Playing thus (in Just Intonation) these chords will have a certain sweetness that can be pleasing to the ear. If you play this chord in an equal tempered tuning, it can sound quite harsh.
One problem is that when the six becomes a one, the old tonic is now a third and is too sharp. Another problem in ths area is when you play more "modern" chords in which there is not the same tonal "center" with which to tune out the beats in your playing.
Another problem is playing with a group (and this is what, if I'm not wrong, Buddy Emmons has discussed related to his tuning). If you're playing with a keyboard or with a piano, and you are playing chords with a just intonation tuning, you have to be very careful, and sometimes, in my experience, it is almost impossible to play in tune. All good musicians (even pianists) use their ears constantly for intonation, and will subtly change according to the needs of the music. For instance, an unacccompanied choral group will tonally sound much different than one with a piano or organ, or a single vocalist with a keyboard. This is the same with all instruments I can think of.
A third thing to think about, if you are going outside the bounds of whatever we call traditional western music, is that there are times when none of the "rules" apply. For example, gamelan music and much indigenous music have very different concepts of tonality where even the octave itself is different from what we are accustomed to [though I think it's interesting that they have discovered a flute used by the Neanderthals that had a perfectly tuned pentatonic scale]. And if you go to nature itself (which, if listened to in the right way, is the most wonderful music), you have to redefine what even a "tone" is. And if your approach should ever become to incorporate all or some of this, your hands can get quite full . . . or remain empty if you just trust your own judgement and your intuition.
I myself usually tune open to a modified just intonation with the thirds and sixths a little flat (the beats slightly shorter than one second) |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 8:15 am
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To extend, hopefully, Susan's thought, context is a consideration even within the compass of a steel guitar.
I have previously noted two traditions among piano tuners: those that favor a smooth progression of thirds, and those who favor strong 5ths and 4ths as I do, sacrificing a 'perfect' progression of thirds. Tuning a Yamaha CP70 as the crowd filed into the arena to the strains of 'Honky Tonk Women' produced an excellent tuning for rock 'n roll.
Thus, even in even temperament, there is no perfection to be had. What works for rock may not work for classical solo works. Thus...
The elements of each chord will vary for reasons she stated. Thus different chords, involving different pulls, will have a slightly differing character; and as with a piano should be considered normal variations within the nature of the instrument.
A little shimmering of a IVm, as compared to a purely JI I, can be acceptable in context. If one desires that minor chord to be beatless as the tonic, a different pocket can be used.
| Susan Alcorn wrote: |
| And if your approach should ever become to incorporate all or some of this, your hands can get quite full . . . or remain empty if you just trust your own judgement and your intuition. |
Philosophically, I prefer to remain empty of the strife of perfection.
To attempt to adhere to all possible "rules" can be fruitless and consume more time in tuning than is reasonable or sometimes possible.
You can spend forever tuning an instrument, and you can get quite lost, with both head and hands full, resulting in discouragement.
The simplest procedure may produce the best results.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 9:58 am
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Last night I was about 8 songs into the first set and was thinking, "Wow this guitar is really in tune tonight". Then I checked the Peterson......the whole guitar was slightly flat. I realized right there and then that it's a lot more about your ear than your tuner. I was compensating without knowing it, just manipulating the bar to lock in with the band tuning-wise. I did tweak the guitar at that point, but it certainly didn't sound any more in tune.
It's a lot more about your ear being in tune than your guitar, in situations like these.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 10:20 am The Odd Man out?
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| Quote: |
| ???>For Buddy Emmons -MS- |
Hmmm........
I was trying to think of an answer, but I'm the only one so far that's not...
EJL |
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 11:59 am
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Yep, I am always amused at the number of folks who respond to a question thats not put to them....no wonder Buddy,....Don,...Tom,..ect. dont post more than they do...these folk already know there answers! 
_________________
Twang to the bone! |
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Susan Alcorn
From:
Baltimore, MD, USA
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Posted 7 Apr 2007 1:15 pm
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| Far from being know-it-alls, I think we were just trying to help someone who had a question. |
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