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Topic: Emmons Legrande - any push-pull qualities retained? |
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 2 Apr 2007 10:02 pm |
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I'm still learning about the Emmons guitars, and have a question:
When Emmons changed from push-pull to all-pull, which innate qualities that gave it such a famous, signature sound were retained? For those who were used to the qualities of the push-pull, what gave you the confidence to switch to the Legrande when it replaced the push-pull (besides ease of maintenance?)
I'm a bit confused by how Emmons managed to uphold the reputation of the push-pull sound while switching to all-pull. I'm wondering if there are aspects of the Emmons that transcend both models.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 2:29 am
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hey Chris...well, I have never owned a PUSH PULL..but here is what my local friends tell me..they liked the depth of the Push Pull tone but hated the awkward setup and the ability to make quick changes.
Each of them play a Legrande II which in my mind have a good overall balanced sound as well. I did own a D10 Lashley Legrande last year and it was fine, a bit stiff , but it had a very good overall sound, but next to my 2004 Carter it didn't compare in action and just ease of playing. But keep in mind one is 2004 and the other was 1986. 20 years of technology. On recordings they sounded very similar, very hard to tell them apart.
I always refer back to what bobbe Seymore once told me, Push Pulls are great sounding Steel Guitars, but NOT ALL OF THEM...he told me that you may need to go thru a few of them to get a good one and then bring that one to someone ( him) to make it play great.
I see that as being the same as the old original Tele's and Strats, you had to pick up a few to find one that felt good, they were not all the same.
great picture of you with Kenny by the way..!
tp |
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Charles Curtis
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 4:08 am
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| I bought a lacquer Emmons in 2002. It just happened to be a model that Ron Jr. had available at the time. Before this I had an early PP that I had sold. I don't want to get into any argumentative discussions, but IMO this guitar is fantastic. I love the looks and the tone, and if I want to make any changes I take it to Billy Coooper's Music down in Orange, Va. and let Billy do his magic while I wait. I would love to own one of the first Emmons PP built; serial no.s #001 thru #007 if anyone out there is willing to let one go. This is for personal reasons only. I'm just a sentimental guy that loves the past. |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 4:25 am
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Hi Chris
I have three Emmons steels. An early 70's S10, a mid 80's SD10 push pull, and an early 80's SKH SD10 LeGrande. They all sound and play different. The mid 80's steel has the deepest sound, the early 70's has the most harmonically rich sound, the LeGrande has the snappiest, brightest tone, and plays the easiest.
They don't sound an awful lot alike to me, but they all sound good...Jerry |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 6:35 am
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| An Emmons LeGrande is an excellent guitar but it will sound different from a p/p. The changer design is all together different. |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 7:39 am
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I also said I'd rather have a P-P that didn't sound as good as some than any thing else ever made.
Yep, hard to make fast changes, but who cares? You don't change a pedal setup on the job anyway.
I love the way P-P guitars stay in tune better than the all pulls, the dependability and of course, the tone by which all others are measured.
As far as the pedal feel goes, it is wonderful because it does NOT get progressivly harder like some all pull guitars. The pedal pressure is the same at the start of the pull as it is as it nears the stop. Most all pull guitars push harder the farther the pedal is pushed.
Dependability is the biggest reason (other than tone) that I have played these guitars for over 38 years, always in tune, always work, not affected by temperature,(becaues the finger stops are at the changer,not at the pedal rod).
The greatness out weighs the bad many times over on these guitars.
The biggest problem is folks that don't know how to tune, even though this is very simple if one cares to learn. Adjusting and learning simple basics is what most folks have the problem with. I took me a while in trhe sixties to warm up to this guitar over the Sho-Buds, but when I did, it was all over.
Regardless of my deteriated relationship with the company, I still have a great love for these incredible, unique instruments, and I don't see this love ever dying off.
Bobbe |
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Bill Simmons
From:
Keller, Texas/Birmingham, AL, R.I.P.
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:05 am Emmons Short Keyhead
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| I hope it is OK to continue from Chris's good question but how does the Emmons Legrand "Short Keyhead" compare for tone, playability, etc to the other Emmons models and the classic p/p. I love p/p's! |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:16 am
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Hi Bill
To summarize my previous post, the SKH LeGrande sounds and plays completey different from my two push pulls, which sound and play different from each other...Jerry |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:26 am
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Thanks for the input, guys. Lots of wisdom there.
So I take it Emmons simply changed the mechanism of their guitars completely, from push-pull to all-pull, but kept the same name.....and the steel community accepted that?
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com
Last edited by Chris LeDrew on 3 Apr 2007 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:31 am
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Why do you think a name change was in order? 
Does Chevy change it's name when they come out with a new model?
We're just pickers not a grand jury!  |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:44 am
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The Emmons Company named the new model "LeGrande", so there was a distinction between the two models. They continued to build both types of guitars for at least five or six years, so players could order whichever model they wanted. All built at the same place by the same company.
Don't think the LeGrande was "accepted" by all Emmons players, it's a different guitar than the push pull...Jerry |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 8:57 am Re: Emmons Legrande - any push-pull qualities retained?
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| Chris LeDrew wrote: |
| I'm a bit confused by how Emmons managed to uphold the reputation of the push-pull sound while switching to all-pull. I'm wondering if there are aspects of the Emmons that transcend both models. |
Emmons didn't manage to "uphold the reputation of the push-pull sound while switching to all-pull." The market for the more inexpensively built and more easily changed setup of all-pulls swamped out the market for push-pulls, and Emmons was forced to follow the market and switch over. The Emmons all-pulls are good guitars, but are now just one more among the sea of all-pulls.
It's sort of like when amp makers switched from handwired tube circuits to solid state and PCB amps. Like with old handwired tube amps, there is a cult following for old push-pulls, that is not particularly supported by the original manufacturer (although you can still order some push-pull parts from Emmons). And like the rebirth of handwired tube amps in the expensive boutique market, there is a nascent attempt to bring back the push-pull as reissues from Emmons using left-over parts, and as the Promat. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 9:16 am
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I'm sure glad that Ron could scrounge around and find enough parts a couple of years ago to build me these: 
And by some strange accident he even found a new pickup, neck and fretboard for this S-12:
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 9:34 am
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J Fletcher, that makes sense, seeing that they were at one point manufacturing both models distinctly. I guess the push-pull just slowly got phased out and the Legrande became the only Emmons guitar in production.
I think the Emmons company was fortunate in retaining its reputation for superior tone long after it stopped producing the very mechanism that gave it that reputation.
Having said that, there must be more unique qualities inherent in the Emmons guitar besides the mechanism. An Emmons Legrande that belongs to a friend of mine has by far the most sustain I've heard above the 12th fret. I've heard this about numerous Legrandes as well as the push-pulls. Both all-pull and push-pull Emmons seem to have nailed the sustain issue in Hugheyland. Is there something at play here besides the changer, possibly?
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 9:47 am
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| (IT'S A SECRET) |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 10:03 am
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| Chris, I'm not necessarily challenging your comparison in terms of upper neck sustain, but how extensive and unbiased was it? Does a LeGrande really out sustain modern Zums, Fessies, MSAs, etc.? Does John Hughey himself play a LeGrande? I'm not trying to be smart, just sincerely curious. Beyond the changer itself, does the Emmons company really have other push-pull model secrets that can be applied to an all-pull that the other top all-pull makers haven't been able to replicate? |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 10:42 am
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In my opinion the playing field was leveled once Emmons went to the all-pull. After that, though, they still had the perceived advantage of an outwardly cosmetically-similar instrument to the one that had made the Company's reputation, and I think that continued to give them an 'edge'.
Personally, I've never been bitten by the p/p 'bug', but that's perhaps because I've never spent any amount of time with one. I'm more than happy with my LG111, but that may be as much to do with familiarity than any real difference between it and all the other a/p guitars out there. I've had two brief dalliances since then - Zum and Mullen - but there was just enough physical difference to unsettle me, so I went back to my LeGrande.
All of which leads me to ponder what subliminal influences caused me to buy a new Emmons back in 1998. I believe it was nothing more than an intangible 'magic' that surrounded the firm's name.
All sorts of politics have played into the defection of some of the big 'names' who now play something else; I think that's an inappropriate discussion, and would, I'm sure, lead to some wild guessing games...
RR |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 11:29 am
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Talking about intangibles and subliminals, I have a strong impression that there are a lot of Emmons (p/p and LeGrandes) on the East Coast, a lot of Carters and MSAs in Texas and Oklahoma, and a lot of Sierras on the West Coast. Funny how different brands sound better in different geographical locations.  |
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Pat Burns
From:
Branchville, N.J. USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 1:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| For those who were used to the qualities of the push-pull, what gave you the confidence to switch to the Legrande when it replaced the push-pull (besides ease of maintenance?) |
...for me it was the other way around. I owned a LeGrande first, which was a great playing and sounding guitar, but I sold it to buy a push/pull, which is an awesome sounding guitar, and plays well too because Mike Cass set it up (both of my p/p's).
I sold the LeGrande simply because the p/p sounded better. The LeGrande has that great Emmons tone, but the p/p has the P/P TONE (Emmons tone on steroids)...I can't describe it, but it's like the difference between Dairy Queen and Real Italian Gelato....or between showering with your clothes on or off, to paraphrase that other old analogy.
I have no maintenance issues, the guitars were set up professionally and stay that way. I know how to tune them, when they occasionally need it...mostly when changing strings. |
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Randy Gilliam
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2007 1:53 pm Emmons
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| I have a 2006 Emmons Legrande 111 D10 Black 8 and 5. Pedals are Getting better the more I play it Not as stiff. Stays in tune Sounds great. I Have a single 038 l serial SKH That Sustains Better. my friends say they Cant tell Any difference When i play at stage Vol. To me when I Practice at work The Pedals are Really smooth on the SKH But clank Pretty Loud I Dont think You Could do a Recording session With it.I Play Through a Evans 200SE 2006 ModelWith aBossRv 3 With delay and it sounds Really good .I also Have a 2007 new steel King and it also sounds Good . but i like the Sweet sound Of the Evans. Randy Gilliam. |
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Justin Griffith
From:
Taylor, Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 11:26 pm
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They can play just a little easier but they don't sound at all like a P/P.
(I am wearing my asbestos flame retardant suit)  |
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Larry Behm
From:
Mt Angel, Or 97362
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 4:12 am
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David you would be supprised at how many PP players there are out west. Come to the Portland Jam and see for yourself.
Larry Behm |
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Glenn Austin
From:
Montreal, Canada
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Posted 10 Apr 2007 6:08 am
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Chris, You owe it to yourself to own a push pull Emmons. Especially since you are a vintage Sho-Bud player. The Emmons P/P is a very cool piece of engineering, even by today's standards. I've owned two, and I regret selling them.
I've tried a few Legrands and Legrand II's and didn't think they sounded like a push pull at all.
Currently, I'm playing a 66 ZB which is probably the best sounding guitar I have ever owned, but mechanically it is a DAWG. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 11 Apr 2007 6:57 pm
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Glenn,
I think I might just have to take your advice. Thanks for the encouragement.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Apr 2007 6:36 am Listen to Pat,
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Pat Burns hath spaketh the gospel. Listen to him. He is right on.
Bobbe |
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