The long road ahead-Can we bring real country back.

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Bob I hope I put this in the right place:: I've been reading some post about classic Country. One was where JOhnny Cox and Justin Travino did the ET show in Nashville to half a house, thats sad. I have been involved in a movement of getting good solid country music back into the main stream. Its very frustrating to visit radio stations and have them say, its too country,their has beens,its just not selling ,or my favorite (no one wants to hear that kind of country anymore). But I say, there not hearing it because the radio won't play it,catch 22.
Tracy Pitcock @ the heart of Texas country music Assoc.is making great strides in getting Classic country back where it belongs.Of course Texas swing and classic country go hand in hand, and a wider majority of people love this kind of music there. Its not like that everywhere, here in Missouri it seems to be harder to spread the news. It seems like its either Bluegress or pop country and nothing in between. I'm open to disscussion about this, and need all the help I can get.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Its the people who own and run the radio stations. Its my belief that traditional country would be bigger now than ever if stations would play it. Why? Easy. The Baby Boom Generation. The biggest generation in the history of the country. This is purposeful cultural genocide being decided at the highest levels. New country is just blues and rock.

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

Bill wrote:

"Its very frustrating to visit radio stations and have them say, its too country,their has beens,its just not selling ,or my favorite (no one wants to hear that kind of country anymore). But I say, there not hearing it because the radio won't play it,catch 22."

Bill, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not taking sides but perhaps expand the thinking from the radio business side.

When stations say "it's too country" what they mean is; compared with the current mainstream country, the production values of older recorded music do not mix very well with current mainstream country. Think Rascal Flatts played into a Bob Wills cut. (BTW, Rascal Flatts is one of the top 5 selling artist this past year and one of the overall top concert ticket selling artist placing them in the top 5 as well)

Most of the country music (and most all music) was processed for AM band radio stations - not FM. While we all may like George Jones, the hits we remember are not processed like todays recordings. It's even changed since the early 90's.

It's a fact, the older artist or even traditional country (except for Alan Jackson and George Strait who are using todays recording production processing) is not selling. You can look at Soundscan (retail CD sales reports) or Billboards top 100 CD sales and see it isn't selling. There just isn't a large enough demand for it.

"No one wants to hear that kind of country anymore"

...that statement rings true as well because of the research that goes into each market from #1 to the 100th ranked station, research is being done once, maybe even twice a year (and more in large and major markets) and the research is showing people just do not have a longing to hear this music.
Not only is the music being tested but the listeners preferences too. 2 seperate research tests.

Some markets will be different and you'll see some classic country markets doing classic country formats, but for the most part, the research just does not support making classic country a mass appeal format.

Radio is researching the listeners all the time and there are research studies that use classic country as part of the testing because country radio wants to make money and when people want to hear classic country, research will show it and it will get played.

As far as that goes, if country radio research shows people want to hear nails on a chalkboard, you can bet they'd play it if they thought they could get more listeners, to help them get more ratings, to sell more advertising.

So it's not really a catch 22, country radio will research the music before it gets put into the stations playlist.

To understand this concept of doing business and why radio stations play what they do or why they pick a format to compete with, you must understand the inside workings of the radio business, research, sales, marketing, promotion, consultants, corporations etc...

Another reason you won't hear classic country on country stations because for the most part, they are programmed for a 18-49 year old demo, and that demo just does not want to hear classic country, they want the new music from 'their' artist of their generation and record labels want to sell to them because they have the income to spend.

Research shows people over the age of 35 just do not buy music like the 18-25 demo. They have other things their income is earmarked for. the 35+ demo may buy 2 current CD's a year, not nearly enough for a record label to market to.

Of course there are exceptions in small pockets but the research overall shows this to be true.

Why research? Because radio (all formats) are big business today and corporations want to get their shareholders a profit.
When something goes south on a corporation, the shareholders want to know why, and the corporate officers can blame it on the research (which in turn helps save their high paying positions), which by the way (research) is always changing.

It's about business, not music. It should be called "The Business Music" not "The Music Business" because business always comes first and there's no room for "passion" for the music at that level.

I hope this helps you in some way.

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Thanks for your input. Fisrt of all I don't trust research because there is no proof its ligit.People like Pete Fisher can buy the results. I do my own research by asking people direct.Going to shows ect,What I see is the young people do like classic country. Go to a Vern Gosdin concert and see how many 35 and under are there. We have a FM station here that does a classic show on SAT. The request are over whelming Your right about 35 and older not buying CDs.If you don't like somthing,you won't buy it.Although I do like some of the new so called country, its more rock and roll than country. Rascall Flats is not country. To be honest I like Shania Twian but she aint country. The point me and others like me are trying to make is there's a place for both (for all kinds) of music.Rap, blues and rock has its own audience, so why can't we seperate
pop country from country. I know its about money but I will tell you this. Talk to an artist from the old school and they will tell you, the love of the art comes first. Thanks for your input and honesty.

Ron Fitzgerald · From: Port Charlotte Florida

Marlin , I agree with and certainly understand most of what you wrote. However I have a few random thoughts :
I agree Hank isn't coming back.
Alan Jackson and George Strait are the traditional country artists that sell because they are given the exposure and airplay.
Has Clear Channel polled the listeners that would love some traditional country , but have turned their dials off or switched to talk radio ?
Have not most or many of the country classics been remastered to digital zero to fit today's format ?
My sons are 24 and 25 and have pretty ecclectic musical tastes. Their main reason for not listening to today's country is that it all sounds the same.
A lot of today's young guitarists(?) have located all the notes they will ever need on the 5th and 6th strings of their guitar.
When they hear the first Brent Mason lick ,they give up and play noisy effected distorted pentatonic scales. We call this New Country.
A great song will score in any market. Alan's Where Were You charted on New York City rock stations. Shania had no problem nor did Kenny or Willie . Now Kenny Chesney has mainstreamed and still has steel and fiddle for the most part. Garth drew somewhere close to a gazillion people in NYC of all places, Doesn't anyone get this ? There is a market if you have and market the product.
No musical genre will ever have the freedom or diversification it has always known as long as a few companies own all the major stations. I find that sad.

Herbie Meeks · From: Arkansas, USA

BILL
From The Old School,,,,Just an Idea that worked,
A Radio Station is required by FCC law serving a community, To Sell Air Time,
We, The Band, a few years back, Did the foot work , and found our own "Sponsors" to purrchase the Radio air time,
to Air an old time Family oriented Country Music Show,
Unrehearsed, Just a fun show, We keep it simple Old Style Country, as you can hear from this URL, Clipped songs from many shows,as we have done over 600 weekly shows,
I do believe any Band can do this,,,Also this was the way many Radio Shows started , Take a listen, nothing here to sell, Free to listen , or down load,
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=83929

Herbie

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

There is already good country music being made, and even some of it being played. But I think the real problem is effective monopoly of broadcast radio into a very few hands, which use a very rigid and directional programming approach to appeal to a fairly small market segment.

The problem I have with this is that, in principle, the airwaves belong to all the public, not these companies. The FCC is supposed to license stations "in the public interest", and I don't think they're doing it. This is a common theme in this country - allowing a very small number of companies to get so large and powerful that they control their respective markets to the point where they make the decisions about what people can and cannot have - in this case, what they can listen to on the radio. There is a balance between the business interests of radio stations and the needs of the public, who theoretically own the airwaves that has, IMO, shifted way too far to the former.

If these licensing monopolies were simply broken up and handed out to a much more diverse set of broadcasters, I believe there would be more diverse music broadcasted. I'm convinced there are many large and potentially lucrative markets that are not being served. But these monopolies go with the general bias against enforcing anti-trust laws that has been growing since the early 80s. It's not just music, but every facet of business. At a higher level, I think we are trading off diversity and competition for economy of scale and cheap goods.

BTW - among a lot of city folk and college students, I sense an upswing of interest in country music and bluegrass - but not Kenny Chesney and Shania Twain. People like Hank Williams, Bill Monroe, Lefty Frizzell, Webb Pierce, Ralph Stanley, and Merle Haggard are the standard bearers. Will this ever make it to the "mainstream"? Hard to say. My sense is that a lot of people certainly don't want it to. I think there's a lot of mainstream bias against what people call "hillbilly music", for reasons that I can only imagine but can't say for sure.

All my opinions, of course.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ron Fitzgerald · From: Port Charlotte Florida

I think I need to explain a couple of my opinions.
Dave . I used the example of Kenny and Shania as an example of what can be done if the marketing $$$ are present. I would never ever classify them as classic country.
Jim , I did not mean to be derogatory. As a complete musician myself (I am not just a country player) , I was certainly not stereotyping anything . The conversation was about country. I have auditioned 100's of guitarists in the richmond area over the last 10 years for all types of music. I agree that ( at least in our area)there are some good young guitarists , however most that I have dealt with do not know a simple Maj 7 chord. My point about the Brent Mason licks is that most times when we audition for country players we hear " good that music is easy to play". As soon they hear what needs to be done on these songs they run. It's not just a country issue , it's that they can't play in time, in tune ,read,or play clean in any style.
Of course Brent Mason is a complete musician. I just used his country licks as an example. I wish we had the young folks you have in your area , it would make my job a lot easier. I basically agree with both of you and maybe I did not explain my observations well enough.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Thanks Ron - that makes perfect sense. The one thing always lacking is readers...I'm not one either...but it seems to be so seldom required or necessary it just does not come up enough to be considered.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Ron - I never thought you classified Kenny and Shania as "classic" country, nor did I. My point was that these younger people I deal with are interested in "real" country, not "pop" country. In fact, there is a strong reaction against that among these folks, sort of like the reaction many "real rock and rollers" had against disco and corporate rock in the 70s - too "processed", not "real", in their parlance. The result was punk music - an absolute backlash. I think a comparable backlash could happen - that is IF it is allowed to. Right now - with the firm monopoly grip the majors like Clear Channel have on the airwaves - they can ultimately decide what is played, no matter what anybody wants. I really believe they now have McLuhan-esque control of the major media.

I'm actually not making any absolute value judgements about any of the music - it's purely a matter of personal taste. I just think that the traditional fare has a significant market, which is being artificially suppressed. I don't give a %@&! what their marketing studies show. I've been involved with a bunch of marketing studies - they can be made to show pretty much anything you want, if you know what I mean. Read "How to Lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff - that is not make believe. I agree with you that marketing hype and big $$$ are what's driving this, like practically everything right now.

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

Depends on what real country is to you, too. To me, it's Hank-type country with a guitar, bass, pedal-less steel, and fiddle. I'd love to hear that come back on the radio. It's on my MP3 player, anyway, so I guess that's good enough!
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My equipment:

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Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

We are lucky up here in Anchorage,Every Sun.there is a local show called the "Truck Stop"That plays Classic Country stuff,with some Alt/Country,and Bluegrass.It's a three hour show from 12:00am-3:00pm...they might also be online?
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/kbc/guide.guidemain.They actually play some Jimmy Day,and Emmons cuts and they tell you the history of all of the songs.remember we are an hour behind the left coast.
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Ron Fitzgerald · From: Port Charlotte Florida

Dave , you are so right . You can make numbers and statitics say anything . Just watch the news. I am 59 and I have never been involved in a poll other than our forum . Don't you wish they would ask us once in a while ? How could anyone know what we like without asking? Numbers are much easier to play than any pedal steel. Clear Channel and their ilk need to go .

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

Do you mean "will it come back"? I hope so, but problably not. I see this tied in with our cultural death which is happening right now. As much as we want our music to be imortal, we understand that that, is unrealistic. I belive the are " mechanisims" in the media in place that will continue to diminish our music. Ask your self this, Who's in charge (I mean what media corp) of what those 18-35 yr olds watch and or hear? I think you get mu drift. Rolling Eyes

J.C.

Bob Hickish · From: Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.

Our group up here in the far NW is exactly like Al described ,
And we are well received by the 20 somethings . It always amazed
me to see young folks setting up front at our venues & of course the
older folks that love the " Real " country music .
Its my opinion ! if we all just play our music it will live on in spite of the
corporate music industry , maybe some of the young faces we see will
demand it in later years . then the young Steelers here on the Forum
will have there day in the sun

Herbie made a point earlier ! make your own venue ! I know it can be done ,
we are doing our best out here .

Hick

Herbie Meeks · From: Arkansas, USA

BOB
I hope I made the point. This is easier to start with a small community Radio Station, Most local Businesses, we found, were owned by folks who love the old country music, and was easy to get them to sponsor, our live radio show.and purchase the Air Time.

As I stated, above, the FCC rules demand that the station sell time to the local business sponsors, or loose their license

Herbie

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Herbie, I didn't know this and its a great Idea. I know the market is geared toward the younger sector, and thats fine. I just want it to sound like country, with fiddle and steel guitar ect, It seems to play country these days you have to have Jimmy Hendrick's distortion pedal.I've been playing music for over 50 years. I have played everything from blues to bluegrass
and like all kinds of music.I wonder how bluegrass would sound with a distorted guitar. The point I'm trying to make is that Blues,Bluegrass,rock ,even opera have a distinctive sound, so why has country been singled out. I realize that things change, it has to in order to progress. I'm certianley not against having new artist as well as new music. I just want country to sound like country should sound. Most of our music has a tradition behind it. and the traditional sound of country is going by the wayside.

Bill Duve · From: Limestone .New York, USA

True country will not die unless the world ends I dont think.
Consider that at least half our listeners also watch Comedy Central and drink Bud Light and thats about half the nation and I dont see an end to this great type of Americans in the near future !

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I've been around this stuff long enough to see it come and go several times. It'll be the hippest thing around for awhile
(Urban Cowboy, for example) and then the most uncool thing on
the planet. When it comes back around, it will be in a slightly
(or not so slightly different) form, because it's a different
generation performing it.

That having been said, there is an audience for most any
musical form. You just have to either find them or better yet
cultivate them. Certain things survive and even thrive because
a relatively few people care enough to keep at it. The influence
of Eddie Stubbs, for example cannot be underestimated.

You could make the best peanut butter in the world in your shed out back, but could never get it on the shelves at
Safeway, because Kraft has the space sewed up. Better days
lie ahead because of the internet, XM radio, etc. The
stranglehold of corporate radio is not what it was a few years
back. There is an audience for traditional country. I play it
all the time, and I don't miss a chance to point out the
difference to what they're hearing and what the local FM
powerhouse is telling them country music is. I don't have any
illusions that I'm shooting for the 18-30 market.
Real country is alive and well.

Paul King · From: Gainesville, Texas, USA

Bill, They could bring the old country back tomorrow and it would not be soon enough for me. I have whined and complained about this new stuff today they call country music. If it is country I'll be a monkeys uncle. Even the Grand Ole Opry stinks IMHO. The only reason I would watch it is to see Tommy White play. I am fortunate in this town I live in. Our local radio station plays Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, Ray Price and some of the others that have passed on. That means I get to hear some good country music but even more some good steel playing. I turn my radio on at night and Buddy Emmons, John Hughey, Hal Rugg, Lloyd Green and many others put me to sleep. I figure that is a good group to listen to while drifting off into a deep sleep. I hope the old country does come back but I am not gonna hold my breath and I sure ain't gonna listen to that junk out today.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

I'd like to see Country Music on the Country Music Channel, CMT. I have no interest in Dallas Cheerleaders, comedians, etc., and the truck programs get old after a while.

What about a country music channel that actually plays country music ? I get so annoyed when they play a soundbite of some great music and then some young idiot fades the music down and talks over it, then switches to another song after a few bars. Just for once I'd like to hear a song all the way through, without any zooming or panning or any other optical tricks.

Even though he's probably a distant relative of mine, I get tired of Garth Brooks' acrobatics, and I can't stand to watch him smash up good guitars that other people can't afford.

Bill Dobkins · From: Rolla Missouri, USA

Sorry to let you down Alan but they are spelled different. But i think I'll choose yours.I had better be careful, his brother lives here and his sister in law is my banker. But I hold Garth responsible for a lot of what happening in country music today.
I miss shows like The Ralph Emory show,and TNN ect.

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

Just an idea for my fellow steel players, but there is a ton of videos on Youtube.com
Bill has been posting a bunch of the great steel guitar performances here on the forum under "Steel on the web", but try a search on some of your favorite singing artists if you haven't done so already, chances are there may be something on that site you may enjoy.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

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