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Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

I heard a lot of good things about these guitars. My question is about the new Millineums that are carbon composite. I know it's lightweight but is this really good. What about tone and sustain. Can this material resonate that well. And then I wonder about strength. Will all the tension that the undercariage and changer produces, how does's it hold up over time. Please fill me in as much detail as you like. I can listen until my cow comes come.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Someone else will have to comment on tone.
Carbon fiber has the stiffness of steel without the weight. I'd speculate that due to the consistency of the material, tone would be very even over the range of the instrument.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons

Hook Moore · From: South Charleston,West Virginia

Charlie said it very well and the tone is sweet. Fantastic guitar !
Hook
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Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Ben G....If you would care to go to the MSA website and click on products you will find information about the carbon composite technology.

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · From: Ayrshire, Scotland

You beat me to it, Reece. Smile

Arch.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

In truth, I feel the ordinary pedal steel relies very little on body resonance. For sure, when you're dealing with raw boards, they do posess a particular resonant quality. Anyone who's ever tapped an oak or maple plank can tell you that. But by the time you glue this board to 3 others, and finish it with lacquer or Formica, and attach end-plates, a changer and other associated metal parts, and then throw a wood or metal neck on top of that, there's very little "natural resonance" left in there. All you have to do is tap your steel with your knuckle and you'll discover this is true.

The thing I find appealing about the Millennium's CFC body is that it's totally consistent, you can make hundreds of them and they'll all sound exactly the same. This isn't true with wood, and we've all heard those stories about "this guitar sounding different or better that that one", even though the make and model are identical. Yes, the effects of body resonance are small, but they still have a bearing on the overall instrument's sound. In short, the molded composite technology takes all the inconsistancies out of the instrument. It's now possible to make two pedal steels that sound exactly the same! Of course, this really isn't a new concept. The Bakelite Rickenbackers had the same "repeatable quality", in that they all sounded good!

The CFC body can be made far more resonant than a piece of wood, and this allows the manufacturer to take advantage of any improvements this resonance might impart to the instrument.

As far as the tone and sustain of the Millennium goes, I'd put it on par with anything out there. And then there's the obvious advantage of never having to worry about the body cracking, splitting, or warping, as the material is impervious to moisture, and therefore it doesn't expand and contract with temperature and humidity the way that wooden guitars are so prone to do.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

When I first got my millennium, my wfe and I compared it to the tone of my wood guitar while unplugged.

The Millennium was louder and brighter, and every string could be heard individually as I raked my thumb across them.

Carbon fiber is now being used to make other stringed instruments, including guitars, mandolins, and all the instruments in the violin family. Famed cellist Yo Yo Ma is now using a carbon fiber cello.
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Tom Mossburg · From: AZ,

Ben, I work for the Air Force and we have a lot of fighter jets sitting out on the runway with carbon composite wings. Most are capable of supersonic flight and can carry a few tons payload. That takes a lot of strength so my guess is that a carbon composite body on a steel should handle the load just fine.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

I believe MSA uses Continuous Carbon fibers to make their guitars.from what I know it's just about impossible to drill into so all of the inserts have to be molded into it?The only one that I've heard was David Wright's and it sounded great...I don't think that strength is a problem in these guitars.
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

john buffington · From: Owasso OK - USA

My Millennium is almost 2 years old and sounds as sweet today as it did the day I received it. It is the most comfortable guitar I've ever played, not to mention string breakage is all but non-existant. In the time I have owned this guitar I have broke 1 string. The tone is awesome, playablitity second to none. Would I buy again if I were shopping for another guitar - would it be an MSA - in a heartbeat! My opinion only!
John Buffington, Pres. OSGA

Steve Alcott · From: New York, New York, USA

I second all the good stuff in the above posts; my MSA continues to be a pleasure to play. I would recommend this instrument without hesitation. They don't come cheap, but try pricing a custom made guitar or violin family instrument some time.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Donny,I believe that there are a couple of other methods...Graphite Powder,and Pellets,I know those methods are used in making racquets.Continuous Fiber is the most expensive way,and the strongest method from what I've read?
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Aside from it's tone and the strength, and the light weight, MSA also has the most advanced undercarriage and changer (4 raises, 3 lowers) in the industry. The phrase that they play "like butter" doesn't even begin to describe how smooth and easy they play.

I actually had a bit of a problem adjusting to mine because it is so smooth and requires so little pressure on the pedals. I was used to having a lot more resistance, and it took a while to develop the lighter touch the guitar requires.

I believe MSA is the finest steel guitar available today. Of course, you may find a different guitar that you prefer for one reason or another, (and there are a lot of excellent ones out there) but I don't think there is anything better.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
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Johnny Cox · Posted 12 Mar 2007 2:22 pm

Stu, I can't comment on any application of carbon fiber other than the one we use. Nothing is molded into our bodies, we drill the mounting holes just like in a wood body. The only difference is that once we drill one body the drill bit is a goner.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Sorry Stu, tennis rackets are made using long strands of carbon fiber. Below is an excerpt from a research paper (By: Sung Hong, Chun-Ta Huang, and Daniel Carvajalon) on the making of the Wilson Pro-Staff tennis rackets...

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I have the MSA Legend with a wood body and it's worked out really well for me. It's definitely one of the top guitars out there. There's a list of features that I was able to identify and list on the page below. If you click the links on the left side of the page you can see a ton of detailed pics of the MSA undercarriage, swappable pickups, changer etc.

Greg's MSA Page!

At my Home Page follow the links for the Tab files or MSA/Steel King sounds. All were recorded with my MSA Legend.

Greg

Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

I can't provide any more detail than what has already been said or what you can find on the MSA site.

Tone, sustain, string seperation, tunability, features, construction, looks etc.....all top of the line! It takes some pretty drastic temperature changes to require retuning

I will say that I love mine and wouldn't hesitate to buy another if I were in the market!!

No, they are not cheap, but I believe they are worth every penny!!
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MSA Millennium S-12U
Walker Stereo Steel
Hilton Pedal

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Well!I learn something new every day,Thanks guys....cool stuff!
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Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I've never played a Millenium so I can't comment on the tone. But I have a lot of experience with carbon fiber.

You can drill it just fine - but yes, some formulae eat bits, and if you drill wrong you can cause chipping. Some types can even be threaded like steel or aluminum. It is extremely strong and stiff, and where you would use steel or aluminum for strength on a guitar (endplates, rails, etc.) I can see where carbon fiber would, in many cases, not need any of those parts.

Weight itself has NO bearing on sustain or tone - for sustain you simply need an integrated system that has few points for vibration loss or damping. Simply speaking, if the string vibration makes OTHER things vibrate. you lose energy and thereby sustain. My GFI Ultra is another example of an extremely light guitar (26 1/2 pounds for an S-10) that has no cabinet drop and excellent sustain. Tone results from a mix of every physical component - materials, fit, and design, down to the legs and pedal rack, all can affect the tone (and sustain). The electronics can then "massage" the sound emanating from the basic platform.

Rainsong and some other makers have used carbon fiber (sometimes in combination with tonewoods) for acoustic guitars for stability - resistance to humidity, or lack thereof. Purists scream and yell, but it seems a technically good idea. Tonally there are mixed reviews, possibly slanted because of the lack of "tradition" in construction. But regarding stability, before ever hearing about the Millenium I thought that carbon fiber might be a solution to cabinet drop.

Like I said, I don't know anything about the tone other than what I've read (which seems to imply it's tonally-neutral, without a "signature" sound - which is either good or bad depending on your perspective) but from a structural standpoint it makes sense.
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No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

Well, I have a Millennium and a Legend both, and I can't tell a nickel's worth of difference in the tone or sustain. I also have an old Classic SS that sounds good, but may not sustain quite as well as the new ones. It does have wood necks that could have some effect on this. The pedal and lever action on the new MSA's is better than the old Classic, which wasn't bad by any means. I also have a Superslide in the collection, but every time I hear Maurice play his, I get the urge to throw mine in the creek.

MSA also has a new model, the Studio Pro that was unveiled at the Texas show. This guitar has basically the same mechanics, but has a 24 1/4" scale, and not quite as many finish options. JayDee played his new one on the show and it sounded great. I may have to add one of these to my collection too. THUNK!!! (That was my wife hitting me over the head with a frying pan)

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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Ben Godard · From: Jamesville NC

Thanks everyone for you input. There is an awful lot of knowledge to be gained from all of you and thanks to B0B we have this forum to share notes.

I think the MSA is what I ultimately want but I just can't afford it right now. Maybe I'll win the lottery. Yeah I'll just go ahead and get a Franklin, a Zum, nd Emmons, too. I just love to fantacize. Don't you?

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I also have an 05' MSA Millenium. 8 & 8. Blue. I like the carbon fiber body. This particular guitar has a sound of its own. Very crisp and clean in high registers and perfect in the low end, especially on the C6th neck. I have it set up and adjusted to where it's smooth as butter to play. Very easy guitar to make changes on and it's a fine product by the MSA folks! I like all guitars that are built today that I've seen. I only want the ALL PULL changer, even though I would like to checkout the hybrid Zum sometime.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Mar 2007 10:26 am

My Milly is the most temperature stable pedal steel I have ever owned. Some of that may be due to mechanical features and materials as well as the carbon fiber body. In terms of tone, I have recently owned an Emmons p/p, Fessy, Zum, Sho-Bud Pro III, and the Milly, all with similar TrueTone single coil pickups. The Milly is closest in tone to the Emmons p/p.

All of the above guitars (as well as a Carter D12 with different pups) have about the same amount of cabinet drop, including the Milly. The drop is barely detectable by ear, but is obvious with a good tuning meter. You can see the drop by plucking the 6th string (the largest unwound string) and leaning your weight on the middle of the body. It can also be seen by plucking that string and pressing the A pedal. All the above guitars but the Bud are unis, so I have an additional A pedal pull on the lowest string, and that gives a little more cabinet drop than you get on a 10-string. From what I have read, cabinet drop may come more from mechanical slack or flexing in the changer and keyhead than from body flex.

My Milly breaks fewer strings than my Emmons, Fessy and Zum. I attribute that to the fact that it has a 24" neck compared to 24 1/4" for the others (string gauges are all the same). It is a tribute to the Milly that it gets comparable tone and sustain with a shorter neck. I would love to try the new model with the longer neck. I feel a little cramped and pitchy on the shorter neck (could all be in my head).

The mechanics of the Milly are the smoothest, most precise, and most easily adjustable of any of the above.

Reading the MSA website it seems that the body is molded to the shape of the major metal parts that contact it. This undoubtaby contributes to the very solid feel of this lightweight instrument.

The interchangeable pickup feature alone is worth the extra cost of the Milly. I like single coils for loud live playing, and humbuckers for quiet playing and recording. Paying extra for a Milly is a lot cheaper than buying two guitars with different pickups.

The MSA Millenium design, materials, construction and finish are simply outstanding. These have to be one of the most bug free pedal steels on the market. Very Happy

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