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Topic: Feedback on Trilogy and horshoe p'ups |
Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2005 11:49 am |
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I've been a member of this forum for over a year and this is my first post. I am in awe of the knowledge and experience of the members of this forum, and I thank all of you profusely for the generosity that is routinely shown to all.
My request is for info and feedback on a design for a lapsteel I am building. I am a slide and lapsteel player/collector, of the advanced garageband variety. I am also a cabinetmaker with 30 years in the trade. A couple years back, I built displays for a local music store and took a Turner Model T in trade. Well, I am in the same town as Rick Turner, and have been by his shop several times now. We decided to design a lapsteel together. I will build it with his advice and support and we will use his pickup--the Turner 'Rick'. It is a horseshoe pickup of his own design and manufacture. It sounds great on the Model T.
Can any of you tell me how this pickup compares to a vintage horseshoe or to a modern repro like the Lollar?
Also, we are probably going to use the Hipshot Trilogy tailpiece. I got a beautiful roller nut and bridge from Hipshot. But I reaflized that the roller bridge is not intonable. Do I need to consider this on a lapsteel? An option I am considering is a tune-o matic style bridge with Graphtech saddles filed to make the strings sit in a flat plane. Also, this does not solve the problem for a future 8 string model.
I know that Hipshot makes a unit with saddles, but the look is not right for me.
My last question: Has anyone used the Hipshot Trilogy for C6 and other hawaiian/swing type tunings? The Hipshot instructions focus on major key tunings. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Jan 2005 12:09 pm
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I have set up the bridge on my Trilogy in a straight line, haven't noticed any intonation problems. I've also stringed it for C6/A6 and E13 and it works nicely, so that's no problem either. Can't help you with the Turner horseshoe though, don't know anything about them...
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2005 2:31 pm
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| I believe the Turner PU is voiced/designed for the electric guitars they're installed in, and are not what a steel player is looking for. |
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oj hicks
From:
Springville, AL
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Posted 21 Jan 2005 10:41 pm
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Hi, Colin...
I can't speak for the Turner pickup as I'm not familiar with it. But for the Aiello/Lollar pick up...I am familiar. I retro-fitted my Excel Frypan with one. Dynamite! It will "knock yer hat in the crick!" Great power, sustain, and yet magnficent tonal quality. If I were a luthier building Hawaiian guitars I would use nothing else. IMHO.
oj hicks |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 22 Jan 2005 11:25 am
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| I supplied Bobby Ingano an 8 string Horseshoe pickup for an Excel frypan he came by, and he says that the new pickup really brought that guitar to life. He mounted it with the Ric type brackets. |
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2005 12:18 pm
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I think my next step is gonna be to build two protptype/testers so I can A?B em with different pickups.
Bill, The pickup you mentioned. Is that one you build? I'd like to have one to demo.
Steiner, Can you tell me the string gauge/set you use and the Trilogy setup for the C6 and E13 tunings? Are there more tunings you squeeze out of this config? |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 22 Jan 2005 12:35 pm
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The set I use for these tunings is the Jagwire C6th/A6th that is sold on this forum.
The gauges are (shows tunings for C6/A6/E13):
E/E/E - .015
C/C#/C# - .017
A/A/B - .020
G/F#/G# - .024w
E/E/E - .030w
C/C#/D - .036w
By tuning the 6th string to C# in the E13 tuning you'll get an E6, and I'm sure there are many more tunings available here that I haven't thought of, but these are enough for me for now...
Steinar
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www.gregertsen.com
[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 22 January 2005 at 01:04 PM.] |
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Stephan Miller
From:
Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2005 12:51 pm
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Colin, welcome. If you haven't seen it yet, check out Rick Aiello's 1/10/05 post about the new Aiello/Lollar "MRI". I had the chance to hear this pickup and A/B it with the current A/L Horseshoe, each one mounted on an Aiello "Dustpan". The MRI had all the virtues of the 'Shoes that o.j. described, plus a fuller sound. With the polepiece-less bobbin and 3" wide aperture in the magnet, the MRI also offers maximum flexibility in design for 6,7 or 8 strings, and string spacing. This p/u is definitely going on one of my steels!
Good luck in your quest... -Steve |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2005 4:00 pm
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Steve ... the "Porter" was fantastic but now my "Growler" is growlin' for more ...
It lasted 2 nites ... 
Now I'm back to drinkin' Yuengling ... 
Colin ... Bill Creller is "Da Man" ... him and Jason have been makin' the magnetized, hardened steel horseshoe pickups for his projects for some time.
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Aiello's House of Gauss
My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield
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Denny Turner
From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2005 7:26 pm
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IMHO, a compensated bridge on a Steel would not provide any closer intonation than a straight bridge, ...and might actually aggrivate intonation in the intonation differences between just intonation and equal temperament in all keys. Here's my thinking about it (eager for any corrections):
An adjustable intonation compensating bridge's setting is good only for very near the tuning and string gauges that the compensation is set for. Change tuning or string gauges more than a little and the compensation setting has to be reset.
Also, the difference between just intonation and equal temperement for some notes in each key of a given tuning, are far greater than what intonation could be compensated for at the bridge.
Therefore a Steel (made for a wide range of tunings and string gauges) has no compensating bridge ...and overall intonation compensation is accomplished by slightly adjusting the angle of the bar while playing (not possible on a fretted guitar).
But if a Steel were going to be played in only one tuning (and theoretically in only one key), a compensating bridge could theoretically be utilized, albeit with a significant (IMHO) loss of vibration comminicated from the strings through the bridge to the body, which is important for a Steel's sustain and body tone (IMHO), ...but a fixed compensated bridge could also be determined and cut (made) to overcome that if one tuning and one string gauge set were going to used all the time.
But if a Steel's scale length were less than about 24", then the amount of bridge compensation would be so slight as to be negligible under the influence of bar vibrato.
The word "Choral" in music physics terms means two same notes slightly out of intonation with each other played at or very near the same time (close enough together for the human ear to hear the 2 as 1). It gives depth to the note intended (called choraling) and is one reason why vocal choirs / choruses sound rich. Sometimes an orchestra's same-instrument section will have some of the instruments tune slightly off from others to create choraling in that section. Piano's are also tuned with choraling in mind and why they have multiple strings for each note. It is also the phoenomina that Chorus effects pedal enterprise upon, albeit also done with phasing if not combined with slight pitch change ...between 2 internal parallel signal circuits. Change the pitch between the 2 notes more drastically and you get Flanging. Make the changes differ in a wave motion and you get Phase Shifting. So the bar vibrato of the Steel has some of those effects (slightly), that might be less induced / pleasing in some keys with a bridge that's compensated exactly (although I suspect it would be more annunciated in other keys).
But a study and report of experiments with a compensated bridge would be quite interesting to me.
A fretted guitar's bridge compensation is actually exact only for it's open strings, and scales and chords up and down the neck are no longer compensated for; Which is one of the main reasons so many spanish guitarists have trouble tuning their guitars for all keys (in addition to them trying to tune by ear to just intonation comparisons rather than with an electronic tuner or knowing equal temperament differences) ...which can only be done via a happy medium tuning between all factors, even on guitars with compensated nuts too. And again, that happy medium during playing is accomplished on Steel rather automatically / intuitively via slight changes in tone bar angle while playing ...AND would have to be done even with a compensated bridge anyway since bridge compensation is good only for the open strings and does not compensate for differences between just intonation and equal temperament in all keys.
Aloha,
DT~[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 27 January 2005 at 07:28 PM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 28 Jan 2005 1:19 am
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I played Pete Grant's National 6 with a Trilogy in ireland, and it was very cool.
No intonation issues for me.
He has them making one for a new 8 string National.
It is on my list fo things for a 8 string Dobro for sure.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 31 January 2005 at 12:51 AM.] |
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 30 Jan 2005 4:50 pm
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Denny,
Thanks for the indepth reply. This now makes complete sense to me--as it would have had I thought it through completely in the first place.
Anyway, my project is moving forward. Now I just have to get ahold of both a Bill Creller and Lollar pickup for demo purposes. Thanks for all for the input. I'll keep you posted on my progress.
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Colin Alder
Act Dorky, Live Forever |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2005 6:40 am
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Colin ... Bill makes hardened alloy steel horseshoe magnets and uses Jason's bobbins in his restoration projects and for steels he builds.
I'm sorry if I was unclear in my above statement ...
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2005 8:49 am
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| Ahhhhh, very good. I will be contacting Jason today. Thanks again for the help. |
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2005 12:04 pm
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My guitars have moved forward dramatically since I last posted and I now plan to have two prototypes to show at Loni Spector's Amp Show in Van Nuys on May 7th. I'm a little nervous because the guitars are currently in parts only. Some are in my shop and studio, and some only exist in the machinist's CNC program. I have provided myself with the necessary motivation and structure of paying my show fees and telling my wife I will be gone that weekend. (Eek!!I think it's mother's day)
LAP STEEL DESCRIPTION: The lap steel should have two playable prototypes in about a month. I've been working with a Rick Turner, as an advisor. I decided to use a classic shape that I especially like. The late 40's model Gibson Ultratone with rounded Art Deco look. Solid, chambered body, natural color mahogany. Fretboard made from aluminum with matching aluminum back.Solid aluminum headstock. Engraved frets and decorative work, 'engine turning' style decorative work on headstock.Hipshot trilogy tailpiece, Hipshot roller bridge and nut. 24" scale.
8 string and palm pedal options are being designed for future orders.
I have one of Rick Turner's own horseshoe pickups that he makes for his model T guitar which is designed for slide. http://www.renaissanceguitars.com/modelt.html I have one that is like the pink one at the bottom of the page. I'll bring it along so any of you slide players can test this fine sounding guitar. This project was started when I asked Rick if he had tried one of his pickups on a lap steel. He suggested I build one and he has lent his invaluable expertise. I'm building two because I also have a Jason Lollar horseshoe. I want to A/B them to compare the sound of the two pickups.
There will be several fine and famous steel builders at this show. I hope many of you can come and test drive my new instruments.
ANY feedback you have would be appreciated.
Thanks, Colin
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Colin Alder
Act Dorky, Live Forever |
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Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
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Posted 2 Apr 2005 1:11 pm
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Colin, i will be there and look forward to trying your new instrument.
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Dan Sawyer
Rickenbacher B6, Fender Dual Professional, Fender Deluxe 8 (trap), Fender "White" 6-string w legs, Carvin steel w HiseTri-plex.
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Paul Honeycutt
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2005 8:42 pm
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You're steels sound cool. A local builder, Chris Kennison, uses an eight string Trilogy bridge on his Berkley guitars. So, that might be a future option for your eight string.
Say, "hello" to Rick for me. He used to help me figure out PA systems back in the Alembic days. We hung out at Telluride too many years back, too. I still want him to build a mandolin for me.
Post some pictures when you have the guitars finished. |
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db
From:
Bethlehem, PA 18015 USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2005 6:57 am
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Hey Colin,
I saw the roller nut on the HipShot website . . .
But, I could not find the roller bridge . . .
Do you have some information on this that you could share?
Photos?
Thanks,
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2005 10:02 am
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| The bridge was not on the website catalog, but Hipshot had been making them and had a string spacing that was 2 3/16" or 2 1/4" I believe. Just give them a call. They have been very helpful. (607) 532-9404 |
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seldomfed
From:
Colorado
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Posted 4 Apr 2005 10:51 am
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hi Colin,
Have fun.
Here's how I used my 8 string Triogy w/ C6
http://www.seldomfed.com/berkley/trilogy.htm
I don't really build steels much anymore - I thought I'd try at one time and get rich selling guitars - cha right, and monkeys might fly out of my butt!  Decided to focus on playing for now, maybe build again later.
I do like the function of the Trilogy though.
Say, could you post a picture of your roller nut please ?? and also your Trilogy.
best,
chris
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Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"Listen Sooner"
www.book-em-danno.com
www.seldomfed.com
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Colin Alder
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2005 12:58 pm
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i don't have a picture of the Hipshot nut or bridge. I have decided to machine my own nut and bridge though, and will post pictures when we have em. I'll probably make those parts available to youall in the near future.
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Colin Alder
Act Dorky, Live Forever |
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Loni Specter
From:
West Hills, CA, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2005 1:11 pm
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Colin.
Hipshot makes a raised roller nut for my RedNecks. (different than the Dobro version} 3/8" string spacing. Also 3/8" off the body/fretboard. |
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