What OTHER factors do you look for in a steel, besides tone.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Not long ago I sat down at an old Sho-Bud. The guitar sounded wonderful, but the pedals were really spongy. More recently I tried a Deckley, and again it sounded great, but the thing was so heavy that it would kill me if I had to drag it up the stairs to my house.

I bought a Millennium because of it's superior mechanics and light weight. Now prior to doing so, I had a chance to sit down at one and try out several different pickups, so I know I'd get a good sound out of it, but that was not the deciding factor. (I suppose if I really didn't like the way it sounded I would have chosen something else.)

The primary reason I chose to get a Millennium was the weight. The superior mechanics and was of playing also entered into my decision. The tone was the least of my considerations.

What made the rest of you decide which guitar to buy?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Herb Steiner · From: Spicewood TX 78669

Mike
When a pedal or knee lever feels "spongey," it's almost always because a pedal/lever stop is either 1) not adjusted correctly so that the stop screw/whatever is not hitting a firm surface until after the string change has been achieved, thus allowing further travel of the pedal, or 2) the stop screw or stop bracket is yielding from the pressure of the foot or knee lever against it.

It's a common problem with mis-adjusted guitars. The Sho-Bud has normally a very firm feeling pedal.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.

Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Tone is my absolute #1 priority - I'll make the mechanics work. For me personally, I don't care how good a guitar "operates" if it doesn't have a rich, distinct tone.

I really think any decent-quality guitar can be brought up-to-speed mechanically IF it's meant to be played as we think of pedal steel (the Multi-Kord and Electraharp types are "chord changers" and really a different ballgame...although tremendous sounding for lapsteel-type stuff, especially the Gibson). The Fenders were intended to be "chord changers" (just look at their literature/manuals) but turned out to be decent pedal steels, and wiht a little tweaking and a few parts additions/changes play VERY fast and very smoothly.

The last thing I want is a generic "pedal steel tone". That's why I ended up with Fenders and a GFI Ultra - they all have very distinctive sounds.

It's like my posting signature reads.

But as far as the question goes, my next choice would be light weight followed by solid-feeling, reponsive pedals/levers with a relatvely light touch. Again, that you can usually adjust...weight and tone are what they are. Well, I guess you *could* make a perforated steel to reduce weight!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

My Sho-Bud Pro II was awesome in terms of sound and pedal stop firmness.

I like the lighter weight AND the more compact body of the newer guitars. Not only does it take up less space, but it just feels more modern if it's compact. The other reason I bought a new guitar was that MSA had lot's of them on display at St. Louis and it's like walking onto a new car lot. You don't have to need it to want it! My Williams keyless also had an extremely compact body which gives you a few more inches on stage to move around in.

Greg

richard burton · From: Britain

Ditto Jim Sliff first paragraph

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Just in case anybody misinterpreted my first post, I DID like the way the Millennium I tried out, (David Wrights original red one- Thanks David,) sounded. if I didn't like the tones it produced with different pickups, I wouldn't have bought it, regardless of the other factors.

The other thing is that as I mentioned I have to contend with stairs, and as some of you know, I was in a serious accident 5 years ago in which I fractured my spine. Now I've recovered and am basically OK, but the bones fused in the shape in which they were broken, and this has led to some minor residual back pain.

This is usually so minor as to be inconsequential, but carrying a heavy steel up the stairs makes it a lot worse. And as you all know, those older MSAs are pretty heavy. Even though I usually keep the mica one in a garage at the bottom of the hill, it was still a problem.

Now, every time I carry the millennium to or from the car, my back thanks me.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The first thing I look for in a steel is how it's built, and how it feels, because the last thing I want to do is spend more time with the steel upside-down (working on it) than I do playing it!

Often times, some steelers are forced to do a rebuild or complete retrofit to make a guitar playable, and reliable. You only have to read here awhile to discover what a nightmare a guitar like a Sho~Bud "Crossover" can be. Sure, they sound great! But who wants a guitar that's going to let you down in the middle of a gig? Probably no one.

As far as the "tone thing" goes, I've come to realize that a guitar with "great tone" is practically useless in the hands of someone who can't play very well. It's like giving a beginning driver a Formula-1 race car, and then expecting him to impress you. Unless all you're looking at is the car, it ain't gonna happen.

On the other hand, we've all heard the comment on here that "Emmons could play a 2x4 with strings, and it would sound wonderful!" That's probably true.

As for myself, I'd far rather hear Emmons or Tommy White play a plywood MSA than I would to hear someone like Jerry Garcia play a Fender or a push/pull Emmons.

(No offense to his fans because Jerry knew and admitted that he wasn't very good.)

All I ask is that you think about this for a minute...

If the tone of a Fender pedal steel was all that mattered, or if it was really something special, then there'd be a lot of famous Fender pedal steel players out there right now.

How many can you name?

I rest my case, oh ye disciples of ultimate TONE.

(Yes, I'll even give you a while to come up with a list. Laughing

)

Ron Kirby · From: Nashville TN

I look for a guitar with great tone and reliability. The name of the guitar would not matter, If it was built by Sloppy Guitar Co. I would buy it. (I would remove the name plate)!

A great tone guitar in the hands of someone who cant play very well, would sound better,,, then a bad tone guitar in the hands of someone who cant play very well !

I would not play a fender steel guitar the tone or reliability dont suit my needs !!

For me a Emmons Legrande II (Works) !

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

Besides tone, I would say I look at how well made the guitar is mechanically, then I look at the prices and what I get for my money.

David Doggett · Posted 15 Feb 2007 4:01 pm

With modern pedal steels there is no need to compromise. There is no one thing that could be so great it would make up for other things being seriously deficient. But there are a number of factors that if they are deficient, it vetoes everything else, no matter how good the other things are.

All modern steels seem to have passable tone, and swapping the pickup would easily fix any small problem I might hear. Some steels 30 years or more ago might have a unique tone that would nix my interest.

I have an Emmons push/pull S12 that has tone as good as any I ever heard, but I don't play it, because it doesn't have my copendent on it, and requires a major and expensive overhaul to get there. So just having the absolute best tone apparently is not good enough for me. I like to experiment with my copedent, so if a guitar is not easy to make changes, and parts are hard to find, that nixes my interest. It could have the best tone and prettiest wood on earth, but if I can't easily upgrade it to my copedent, then it's just a museum piece. I have a couple of those for old times sake and as future projects, but I don't play them, and would never have such a guitar as my one and only.

If it sounds great, but plays clunky, and needs constant adjustments to stay in tune, that vetoes my interest. This is unlikely to happen with any modern guitar, but is a common problem with old beaters.

If it is very large and weighs a ton, I don't want it for a working guitar, I don't care how great it looks or sounds. Maybe as a conversation piece to sit in my living room it would be fine - but I don't want it for gigging. There are too many great sounding, great playing, and beautiful looking lightweight modern steels to choose from.

If it looks wierd to me, or has an ugly color I don't like, I'm not interested. I have to be able to fall in love with the instrument to enjoy playing it. If it is beat up with a little wear and tear, that just adds character and is okay. But a color I hate - no way.

Finally, if all the major factors are acceptable, and there is nothing that is so deficient it acts as a veto, something really small could swing me - something like a good price, a swappable pickup, comfortable and easily adjusted knee levers, a really beautiful finish, a successful manufacturer who looks like they will be around awhile. So if all else is approximately equal, the way it is with most modern steels, then something really small could be the deciding factor.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Donny, I think there are players who look for different things in steels than the "norm"...and Fender players are in that group. There's enough around that b0b created a seperate page for them/us.

As far as players, Sneaky Pete (RIP) and Basil Henriques don't qualify as slouches. Ed Bierly certainly knows HIS way around a steel. Joshua Grange with Dwight Yoakam is another Fender guy.

You're not going to see an overwhelming majority, no - because the instruments are out of production, parts are not available, the majority of the instruments around are 8 string (and none have knee levers unless added later) and certainly there are guitars with better mechanics and a more "modern" pedal steel sound. But there are players looking for THAT tone - and GFI is the only thing close, but doesn't nail it (also lacking the volume/tone circuit of the Fenders).

So your argument is sort of off the subject - "other than tone, what do you look for in a guitar?" I'm not even sure why you went off on Fender specifically, or included the Garcia subject...coupling him with guitars he didn't play.

I'd rather play a few notes that sound really good on a guitar with fair mechanics than 70 at lightning speed on a mechanically superior guitar...that sounds like almost every other modern guitar.

I think there's a misconception that players are all looking for the same thing. That's not the case. Many want decent, generic tone and superb mechanics. Others want a specific tone and are less concerned with the mechanics. It's apples and oranges - for example, ads for "new improved multi-slot bellcranks made of onobtanium, allowing you to set up your guitar in increments of .001ft/lbs of pull" are irrelevant to a guy who makes great music with a Bigsby...
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

I look at what other players are playing. There's a reason why guys play the brands they play. I like the modern guitars. Easy to work on and make pedal/KL changes simple. I'm comfortable with most any of the modern guitars. I like to have a choice of pick ups, colors, set ups, cases but most of all what I look for is SERVICE after a sale. I don't want any if, ands or buts about something from a dealer/seller. Tell me how it is up front and what you'll do if I spend my money with you purchasing one of your guitars. That's the way I do business thru my steel shop and that's the way I like to deal with people. To me, each guitar is a little different and has to be played a little while to get pedals/KL'ers set like a player wants and to get a good feel. Pick ups are another thing I look at. Pick ups sound a little different in different guitars. For me personally, I like the XR-16, George L SS & 10-1 p/u's.

Sonny Priddy · From: Elizabethtown, Kentucky, USA, R.I.P.

I've Played And Owned A Lot Of Differnt Brands But Take It All Around GFI & MAGNUM Is It For Me I Have One Of Each. Great Guitars. SONNY.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

This is where Jim Sliff and I agree wholeheartedly. Tone is ABSOLUTE #1 consideration for me. About fifteen years ago I bought one of the modern steel guitars that looked great andf played great, but I could never get the tone out of it that I was hearing on the classic 60's recordings. Very disappointing. Poor string separation, too much midrange in the guitar. Just utter crappy sound. Then I heard a local player playing an Emmons P/P/ and my ears perked up. Then I met Bobbe Seymour who educated me about the different brands of steel guitars and why they sound different. Thank You Bobbe. I realized that most of the modern steel guitars all sounded generic. As soon as I switched to playing old Sho-Buds and Emmons I was a happy camper.
ANY steel guitar can be made to play well by a mechanic that KNOWS what they are doing. Playability is way down on the list because I know I can adjust any guitar to play well. When you play an Emmons after Bobby Bowman or Tommy Cass gets through with one you'll know what I mean.
Donny, I think alot of the name players sounded better on their older guitars than the modern ones that they play today. Lloyd Green, Buddy Emmons, and John Hughey included. That older sound is what made me fall in love with the pedal steel. The modern sound leaves me cold. Jim Sliff, you hit it right on the head with that last sentence. I worship Mooney's old Fender tone.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Playability: good guitar geometry - I'm tall, plus where the pedals and levers are located really matters to me; ability to get a moderately firm but quick action; reliability and tuning stability; ability to get parts and make setup changes reasonably quickly; and appropriate weight - not too light and not too heavy. I like several different types of guitars - from an old Sho Bud to any Emmons to a more modern Franklin, Zum, Sierra, or Carter. I'm sure there are others that I will like if I get a chance to work with them for a while.

Of course, I'm also a sucker for a trim, shiny black mica guitar or a gorgeous curly maple wood guitar. Wink

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Thats interesting Donny. One of the reasons that I play a 1968 Zane Beck built ZB Custom was Jerry Garcia's tone on and off recordings. Also Tom Brumley's tone. Jerry knew what great tone ZB Customs had. The reason was because Tom Brumley played ZB's with Buck Owens, and Tom Brumley was THE reason why Jerry Garcia took up pedal steel. He immediately went out and bought a ZB Custom. They are both the reason that I play ZB Custom. Al Perkins is another, and he played ZB's because of Tom Brumley. Its the tone. Screw the playability or the weight. Mine plays like a modern steel and I split the cases for the weight. Neither is an issue.
But again, to each their own. Like Jim says some players are looking for something different and some aren't. Either way is fine if it makes you happy.

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

For me this is the order of importance,

1."""TONE"""

2. Playability.

3. Craftsmanship.

4. Tuneable (Does It Tune Easy)

5. Tuneable # 2 (Will It Stay In Tune)

.6 Customer Service.

7. Price.

8. Weight.

9. Brand.

10. Color.
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797

Al Collinsworth · Posted 15 Feb 2007 6:03 pm **what other factors**

Terry Wood · From: Lebanon, MO

For myself, I first look for tone, and then the ease of playing. I have had several steels and played other steels thay my friends owned. My former steels included a Lloyd Green Sho-Bud 1974-1977. Then a double ten Black Mica MSA, and Reece and Bud Carter also built me a Super Sustain double ten and I played the MSA's from 1977-1981. Then a former employer introduced me to Zane Beck 1981, and I went to a single 12 BMI (Beck Musical Instrument). The next year I bought another single 12 BMI from Zane.

However, the real stickler has been the 14 string BMI that Zane Beck and Don Fritsche custom built for me. It is like my hero the late Julian Tharpe's. When I went to pick this steel up at Zane's house he told me that I'd never need another steel. He was right or at least has been since the fall of 1984.

This BMI steel sounds great with a pickup wound like Julian's. It plays fairly easy and still looks great. There's been very little maintence on it since I purchased it. But I did have to have Fred Justice build me one of his great new cases last fall 2006. The case fits like a lady's hand in a glove.

The only thing about my BMI steel is that its a little hefty on the weight. It weighs a big 81 pounds in the case. But for now I can live with that for a while.

Honestly, I like alot of the other steels too, Williams, MSA's, etc., but my BMI is something I wouldn't won't to go without.

May GOD bless!

Terry Wood
Psalms 100:1-5 (Check it out!)

Albert Svenddal · From: Minneapolis, MN

When I sit down and play a steel, if has to "feel" good. If a steel just doesn't "feel" right, it doesn't matter how good it sounds or how great it plays. That is not to mean that tone is not important, of course it is. Also, because the pedal steel is a machine, it must perform well enough to be able to get the job done or do what you want it to do. For me, my Williams has the best 'Feel" and also has great tone and mechanics.
_________________
Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Donny, I read the first part of the post, and sure...it was on topic. I just didn't get the anti-Fender rant's whole point. Simply, who really cares if so-and-so "big name" player uses one now. It's irrelevant to the question of what anyone wishing to answer the question decides to post. The fac that Paul Franklin doesn't play a Fender is irrelevant to those who *do* - again, those looking for a specific tone are interested in an entirely different set of priorities than yu note, and your "if Fenders are so cool, how come no hotshot plays them anymore" is completely pointless and irrelevant. If, say, Russ Tkac considers tone first and plays a Fender, that's HIS choice...and the fact you think Fenders aren't "in vogue" makes not a hair of difference. Is he a "name player"? NO. Does it matter? I guess it does to you.

What, are you trying to convince players that are looking for a specific tone that they are *wrong*? That naming players YOU think are important and one you think isn't somehow matters in a thread asking people what they look for in a guitar?

I honestly don't think you quite comprehend players who put tone first. Their musical goals are likely quite different than yours.

Like Sneaky used to say, he'd listen to a track and try to think of music that fit...not "pedal steel parts". The function is secondary to the sound. He'd make the instrument fit the music, not the other way around. So it is with "tone first"; give me a great tone, and I'll make the mechanics work or learn to live with them.

I hear a lot of quality playing with just horrible tone - but that's MY perception. If I could teach players one thing only, it would be the same thing I taught my guitar students - dial in your gear and technique to get the optimum tone. One note with good tone well played is worth thousands of notes played with lousy tone, even with great mechanics and on a light guitar....
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Many years ago I saw Tommy Hannum ( Ricky Van Shelton) speedpick "Orange Blossom Special" on an Emmons P/P. I was playing Mullen at the time. Tommy was playing extremely fast sixteenth notes. After the show he let me try his push/pull. The action was no wheres near as fast as my Mullen, yet Tommy played like a machine gun finishing off the song with the side of Ricky Van Shelton's boot for the bar. I asked him about that after the show and he gave me some of the best advice I ever got. He told me to NEVER let an instrument play you. That if you love the tone of a particular instrument learn to work around and adjust to it then overcome any perceived initial limitations. I believe that this is what Sneaky Pete always did. I also believe thats what some of the master players did with limited setups and mechanics in the sixties. I always marvel seeing Lloyd Green play with a limited number of knee levers. Pure genious making the instrument talk his language.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

reliability, consistency, tone, robust..

all 4 matter. And I also am not going to spend my life underneath, I did that with old Corvettes, driving them is way better...

If I am spending a few grand on an Instrument it had better meet all the criteria or it ain't coming home with me.

I want a Steel that I can sit behind at anytime, anyday, any gig and it is the same today as it was yesterday and will be the same tomorrrow.

IF I buy an old Steel it will be with the undestanding that it may be a work in porgress.

So, tone is very important but not the most important, it's equal.

Forum Index > Steel Players	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic