| Author |
Topic: In the number system, the vii chord?? |
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 5:54 pm |
|
In the number system, is the vii chord always a diminished chord, and if so what's the easiest way to find the vii that goes with your root, or I chord?
thanks
Terry
_________________
1997 emmons legrande lll 8&5/ Nashville 112 with Fox chip mod LTD 400 / American Tele / John Jorgerson Takamine/ W/S Rob Ickes model dobro/
"May God Bless America Again" |
|
|
 |
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 6:24 pm
|
|
The half-diminished B chord, BDFA in the key of C is actually a vii7 chord. A vii chord would normally mean the diminished triad BDF.
Chords with vii as root are the same as v chords with root omitted; they sound like dominant sevenths or ninths, and they function the same as the dominant chord; i.e. they resolve to the tonic. |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 6:27 pm
|
|
| In blues-based music, vii chord would often be based on the flatted seventh degree; i.e. B flat in the key of C. |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 7:14 pm
|
|
| I knew that. Of course I knew that. Why wouldn't I know that? |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 7:47 pm vii chord
|
|
Well, I've ben trying to learn a little chord theory, but I've just about come to the conclusion that it's just over my head! vii 7 > half diminished BDFA> diminished triad, all this is really confusing to me.
I have a number chart I got off the web that shows
this>
I-- ii-- iii- iv-- v-- vi-- vii and it shows the vii as a diminished in every key. For example, in the key of c the vii shows B dim. In the key of G the vii is F# dim, in the key of D-- C# dim, A - G# dim etc etc. all the way through Gb it shows the vii as a dim. I can get the I ii iii iv v and vi chords but the b7 sharp 5 all this stuff is about over my head.
There should be an easier way. 
Terry |
|
|
|
Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
|
|
|
|
Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 8:40 pm
|
|
| Thanks for clearing that up Michael. I thought I was missing something (maybe I am). I always assumed in the Nashville Number System that the 7th chord was either the major 7th. |
|
|
|
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 8:56 pm
|
|
In practical application, on the bandstand or in the studio, a vii chord almost always is the name given to a major chord one whole step below the tonic.
And sometimes it's called a flat vii.
Regardless of the fact that it's not exactly musically accurate, that's just the way it's done. |
|
|
|
Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
|
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 8 Mar 2007 11:08 pm
|
|
| Um...which number system? The Nashville number system? The Berklee number system? The scale number system? Or some other number system? |
|
|
|
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 12:29 am
|
|
Michael, I've seen a half step below the root notated as a 1b a few times.
Granted, it doesn't happen very often. I guess in blues based or C&W tunes, a half step below the root doesn't turn up very often. As far as my own experience, if there's something quirky going on with a vii change in a tune, the leader will usually point it out before the tune is played.
The vii chord is just one of those things...people call it different things and notate it different ways. I agree with Earnest...a proper vii would be a half-dim, which is really an inversion of the 5, usually leading back to the 1.
And yeah, you're right - calling it a 7b removes any doubt as to what the chord is. |
|
|
|
Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 2:56 am
|
|
| Using the number system, the lick, for example in the Key of C of Dm/Bb/G7/C (used optionally in certain cases instead of just going to the 5 seventh). Would the Bb be a 7b? |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 3:10 am
|
|
Having used the Gnash-vile Number system since the seventies, I've always understood that the chord a whole tone below the root(1)is a 7b, and a 7 or VII chord is the one a semitone below. Both major of course. (Unless designated otherwise with an extender)
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
|
|
|
Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
|
|
|
|
Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 3:21 am
|
|
Jack that would be 7b (or flat 7). But, as the posts above have implied, labels depend on context: in one of my bands calling out a "seven" chord would send us straight to the diminished (and we'd all add the seventh out of habit), whereas in my other band we'd all play flat seven.
To get back to Terry's initial point though, a chart that shows all vii chords as diminished is laying out the abstract theoretical background of all this, acknowledging that all "pure" triads are based from notes in the prevailing scale. So, if you are in G major and you build a triad (adding the next two non-adjacent chord tones) up from the seventh note in the scale, F#, you get F#-A-C: a diminished triad.
Now, in practical terms, per Earnest's first post, most of us would relate that "triad" as the upper portion of the dominant seventh chord in G, i.e., the chord built up from the fifth note of the scale, D, extended upward by one more third : D-F#-A-C, with the root, D, omitted.
Why omit the root? This is all a question of what preceded and what followed the F#-A-C triad. Is it complicated? On paper perhaps, yes. But in actual playing one doesn’t think much about it, assuming one has internalized these relationships and theoretical ideas.
Uh oh! I'm sliding precipitously towards "Do you Need to Know the Notes,” and I swore to myself I'd stay out of that thread!!
Dan
_________________
Durham, NH
dbmCk mUSIC |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 10:45 am vii
|
|
| Quote: |
In practical application, on the bandstand or in the studio, a vii chord almost always is the name given to a major chord one whole step below the tonic.
And sometimes it's called a flat vii.
|
Thanks Skip, I think that might just sink in this thick skull of mine.
So, if I understand it right, the vii is always a major chord, a whole step below the tonic unless otherwise noted as a b7 or 7 dim or whatever.
Would this be right? in the key of Bb the vii would be an A? In the key of Ab the vii would be Gb or F#?
Nope, that one ain't right. my chart shows it to be G dim. G is a 1/2 step below the tonic.
Oh well, I'll study all this some more.I really appreciate ya'lls help guys.
Terry |
|
|
|
Bob Cox
From:
Buckeye State
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 12:41 pm
|
|
| Terry,Bobbie Seymoure has a great book on the numbering system along with a dvd.Its well worth the money ,and will help you alot.Check out his webb site. |
|
|
|
Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 4:30 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
the vii is always a major chord, a whole step below the tonic unless otherwise noted as a b7 or 7 dim or whatever.
Would this be right? in the key of Bb the vii would be an A? In the key of Ab the vii would be Gb or F#?
Nope, that one ain't right. my chart shows it to be G dim. G is a 1/2 step below the tonic. |
Terry, I think I can help clear it up for you.
THEORETICALLY, the vii is the chord formed from the 7th note of the major scale. In the case of the C major scale, it is the chord formed from the B note. In the case of the A major scale, it is the chord formed from the G# note. And so on..
That chord is, THEORETICALLY, either a 3-note diminished triad, or a 4-note half-diminished m7b5 chord. In the case of the C major scale, that vii chord is either a Bdim, or Bm7b5 (a Bdim with an A note).
The reason I keep saying THEORETICALLY is that in modern popular music, that chord very rarely appears in any chord chart in the key of C (it does appear in traditional jazz, but that's another matter).
However, PRACTICALLY speaking, a Bb or Bb7 chord often appears in popular songs in the key of C. Now, to be perfectly accurate, the Bb note is not in the C major scale, and the correct number for it is b7 (flat 7th) since it is flatting the natural 7th B note of the C scale.
But since the natural 7th B note, and Bdim, Bm7b5 chords are so rarely used, and the Bb chord is so common, that many people take the liberty of just saying 7, when the really mean b7 (flat 7th). But again, there really is no ambiguity since the TRUE 7th note, B, is normally never going to be called.
Hopefully I helped clear this up. Please ask if you would like some further clarification. .. Jeff
_________________
www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeffsjazz.htm |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 5:30 pm
|
|
I always think of the vii chord as the V7 without the root. In C, it's the G7 without the G note: B D F.
I get confused when people say "half-diminished". Which half is diminished? What is the other half? I think that "half-diminished" is just slang for m7b5, the proper name for a chord like B D F A (which is G9 without the root, by the way).
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 5:43 pm vii
|
|
| Quote: |
The reason I keep saying THEORETICALLY is that in modern popular music, that chord very rarely appears in any chord chart in the key of C (it does appear in traditional jazz, but that's another matter).
However, PRACTICALLY speaking, a Bb or Bb7 chord often appears in popular songs in the key of C. Now, to be perfectly accurate, the Bb note is not in the C major scale, and the correct number for it is b7 (flat 7th) since it is flatting the natural 7th B note of the C scale |
Well thanks Jeff. Ok, since I don't play any jazz(at all) then I don't have to worry about the minor7b5 or whatever you called it.
All I have to worry about is just flatting the 7th or vii chord which would be written b7 right? I think I got it, maybe. Let me ask you one more question while I'm on the forum. I heard Herby Wallace call out a #5 when he was playing Wed night.Wouldn't that be just raising my v chord a half step. Like playing in F, a # 5 chord would be C#? Is that right? Thanks
Terry |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 5:59 pm
|
|
| Jeff Lampert wrote: |
However, PRACTICALLY speaking, a Bb or Bb7 chord often appears in popular songs in the key of C. Now, to be perfectly accurate, the Bb note is not in the C major scale, and the correct number for it is b7 (flat 7th) since it is flatting the natural 7th B note of the C scale. |
The key phrase here is "C major scale". Most rock tunes in C use a flatted 7th, which makes it a mixolydian scale. In that scale, the VII is a major chord (Bb major in C). C mixolydian is the same scale as F major, but it starts on the C note. I tend to call it the C7th scale - it's easier to remember than "mixolydian".
This is why rock tunes in E use the same positions on steel as country tunes in A.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 7:43 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| a #5 when he was playing Wed night.Wouldn't that be just raising my v chord a half step. Like playing in F, a # 5 chord would be C#? Is that right? |
Yes Terry.
| Quote: |
| Which half is diminished? What is the other half? I think that "half-diminished" is just slang for m7b5, the proper name for a chord like B D F A |
b0b, a dim7 chord is "fully" diminished, which means the 5 is flatted, making it a b5, and the flat 7 is flatted again, making it a bb7 (or 6).
A half-diminished chord only has a b5. The b7 remains a b7, so it is not fully diminished.
I'm guessing that in classical music theory, the half-diminished came first, and was not slang. The m7b5 designation came later I think, when 20th century players got involved. Originally it was charted a minor6 chord with the 6th in the bass, and renamed a m7b5. E.g. Cm6/A became Am7b5
| Quote: |
(which is G9 without the root, by the way).
|
| Quote: |
| Chords with vii as root are the same as v chords with root omitted; they sound like dominant sevenths or ninths, and they function the same as the dominant chord |
Certainly. the vii chord (a.k.a. half-diminished, m7b5) functions to resolve to the tonic. It has a root, the vii note. The vii note is a leading tone to the tonic and provides chromatic upward bass motion to the tonic. Essentially, there are 3 basic ways to resolve a tri-tone to the tonic - V7, bII7, and viim7b5. Each provides a critical bass motion and that is key to the use of the chord, at least with regards to arranging and orchestration.
| Quote: |
| Most rock tunes in C use a flatted 7th, which makes it a mixolydian scale. In that scale, the VII is a major chord (Bb major in C). |
I'm not sure about this. The scale you play over a song has nothing to do with labeling conventions. Notes in all scales and chord spellings are all done relative to the major scale. So even if a song is a blues number with (dominant) 7th chords, while the myxolydian scales might be good choices for improvising over those chords, the naming conventions must be based on the major scale. That means if there is a Bb7 chord in the key of C, no matter what genre of song, it is a flat 7 chord and would be indicated as bVII7.
_________________
www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeffsjazz.htm |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 8:58 pm
|
|
But isn't the VII chord in the key of A minor a G major? By your logic, Jeff, it would have to be G#dim, which makes no sense.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
|
Posted 9 Mar 2007 9:30 pm
|
|
Some music schools offer courses called "commercial harmony". It's called "commercial" to distinguish it from the traditional study of harmony that you find in a standard text such as Piston. Traditional harmony is based on European practice over several hundred years. Commercial harmony is based on American popular music of the last 100 years or so.
Not surprisingly, terminology can differ between the two.
For example, Jeff Lampert wrote
| Quote: |
Notes in all scales and chord spellings are all done relative to the major scale. So even if a song is a blues number ...... the naming conventions must be based on the major scale. That means if there is a Bb7 chord in the key of C, no matter what genre of song, it is a flat 7 chord and would be indicated as bVII7. |
While this matches my experience in popular music, is is not the case in the traditional harmony textbooks. In Piston, if the key is A minor, then VII harmony is G (natural) major triad; you would not say "flat 7" or something like that.
b0b wrote:
| Quote: |
I get confused when people say "half-diminished". Which half is diminished? What is the other half? I think that "half-diminished" is just slang for m7b5, the proper name for a chord like B D F A (which is G9 without the root, by the way). |
This is one area where Piston and pops are in unison. "B half diminished" means BDFA in both languages. Which half is diminished? The fifth is diminished and the seventh in not.
Nashville number system is a 3rd language. As noted above, in the key of C, three is E major in Nashville, and E minor to Professor Piston. |
|
|
|
