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Topic: Missing Instructional Materials? |
David Thornburgh
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 19 Jan 2007 4:28 pm |
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I'm a relatively new steel player (long time gitar player, tho) having a great time with the instrument. My musical taste generally flows from Sweetheart-era Byrds, the Flying Burrito Brothers, Gram and Emmylou, and a lot of the current alt-country, Americana types (whatever you call 'em exactly). Current faves are folks like Kim Richey, Patty Griffin, Buddy and Julie Miller, Lucinda Williams, Jim Lauderdale, Tift Merritt, etc. etc. I'm currently in a band that plays kinda stuff.
Problem is this. As I'm learning the steel, I don't see a whole lot of pedal steel intructional materials in that musical zone. Much as admire the old standards, I don't listen to them that much and don't reallly have much incentive to learn 'em on the steel 'cause I won't be playing 'em. I also don't see myself playing the steel as a solo instrument -- I'd trade a couple fingers to play fills and solos with the taste, tone and chops of a Dan Dugmore, for instance.
So -- anybody have any idea about instructional stuff that fits my musical taste? Thanks for any advice you can offer.
David |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Matt Chase
From:
Queensland, Australia
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Posted 19 Jan 2007 6:39 pm
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David,
I totally understand what you're saying. I too came to the PSG through alt country (Lambchop, Calexico etc), Stones, Neil Young, Gram, Byrds etc
I'm in the process of buying my first PSG and I've been checking out all the courses I can find, and haven't found a lot with musical content that I can really relate to. That's why I'm looking for material that goes through the logic/musical concepts rather than just being songbooks.
Matt |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2007 9:00 pm
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| Most of the musical influences that you mentioned played a lot of the same progressions that tons and tons of songs use- both then and now- so the lessons and course work that are commonly available will ultimately take you where you want to go- as it is all just music and most of it is very similar with twists that most any teacher will give you if you haven't already found it through the stuff you're learning now. Learn passages of a song that you have course work to and apply them to songs that you want to play now and voila!-- You have arrived. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 19 Jan 2007 10:26 pm Why it sounds so square
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Most of the chord progressions of traditional country songs have 4 major chords (1 2 4 and 5), and that's it. Americana/alt country takes the chords in different directions.
First you hear the relative minors: 2m 3m and 6m. These chords are what made bands like The Eagles and Pure Prairie League sound different from country bands of the day. The relative minors are easy to play, but it takes a while to hear which one to use. Learn where the minor chords are by name in the key of G, for a start: Am Bm and Em. The singer in your band probably plays these chords a lot, and just landing on them at the right time will make you sound very good.
Another chord difference in alt-country (vs. traditional) is the b7 chord. You hear progressions in A, for example, that go A G D A. Country theory would see it in D as 5 4 1 5, but it's not in D. It's in A with a b7 (the G note) in the scale. This is a big difference, and it's why your country A licks don't sound right in the alt-country context.
The trick is to change the 7th notes in your scale to b7th notes. In A, this means that when you're at the 5th fret, you must lower your 2nd string with the lever. Also, you'll find the A+F position (pedal 1 + E to F lever) at the 8th fret very useful, because when you release the pedal, it gives you that b7 note.
Knowing several positions for each chord can go a long ways towards making you sound like a really good player. For example, in the A G D A progression, you can play the A at the 5th fret, then slide up into the G at the 6th fret (A+F position), then back to the 5th fret (pedals down) for the D chord. Going up when the bass and rhythm guitar go down sounds very cool.
A traditional country arrangement in A usually doesn't spend a whole lot of time at the 3rd fret. But when a song is leaning into rock, you might find yourself playing there quite a bit. The trick is understanding that your root note, A, is on the 7th string instead of the 8th. And the magic alt b7th note I told you about earlier - it's on the 4th string. Use your third pedal to raise it up to root note.
All of this is standard music theory stuff. The structural differences between traditional country and alt country have to do with chords and scales - the building blocks of all music. There are no secrets. Learn to play your guitar, and you can play any style of music.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 2:55 am
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B0b, great lesson, I'm going to print that one out and get stuck in.
A very good, and underrated course is John Bidasio's E9th Workbook, if you can find it. It's still straight country but it's maybe closer to the Dugmore style than some of them. Excellent on teaching you the major scale positions and how they can fit over chords. Combine that with Jeff Newman's Minor Chord Connection part 2 and you've got a good foundation for the kind of music you want to do.
I totally agree there is a big gap for the stylistic things you hear in modern Americana, a lot of which is atmospheric pads and chimes and unusual chord motion. The more you study the old courses, I guess the easier it's going to be to work out what's being played on your favourite songs (talking to myself here).
Check out Lloyd Maines on Uncle Tupelo's Anodyne and Ben Keith on Harvest etc. It's deceptively simple stuff that beginners can learn but extremely effective. |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 7:33 am
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JayDee Maness who has played for tons of bands considered to be in non-traditional country flavors (Desert Rose Band, The Byrds, Eric Clapton, Mick Jagger) has a couple of courses out that should keep you working for the next couple of years  getting you to where you want to go. |
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David Thornburgh
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 9:39 am
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| Bunch of good ideas, gang. Thanks! |
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Jeff Garden
From:
Center Sandwich, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 6:17 pm
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Also check out Mike Headrick's website www.countrydiscovery.com
If you're into the Byrds, Flying Burrito Brothers, Desert Rose Band sound, he's got a great instrumental tribute CD to Gram Parsons and Chris Hillman called "Steels on Wheels". He's also got a book of note-for-note tab of all the tunes on the CD that will give you a good library of licks to use. |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 8:34 pm
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Of course, finding a good teacher should help...  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2007 11:15 pm
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there have ben innumerable threads on this subject, and many people agree.
| Quote: |
| All of this is standard music theory stuff. The structural differences between traditional country and alt country have to do with chords and scales - the building blocks of all music. There are no secrets. Learn to play your guitar, and you can play any style of music. |
One of the major problems is presented right in that paragraph. Many guitar players come to steel without a theory background - and what b0b is essentially telling you is you're pretty well screwed without one in trying to adapt the current instructional materials to country rock/alt country styles. If you don't KNOW the stuff he's talking about...and most country-rock guitar players really don't - they work out of positions, not scales - you have no resources. You learn tto play by ear, or find a teacher willing to teach a "non-conforming" player...or you bail out.
| Quote: |
| That's why I'm looking for material that goes through the logic/musical concepts rather than just being songbooks. |
We've been down that road as well. The existing "songbooks" are 90% country. there's nothing more genreralized, as there is for 6-string guitar. the usual defense is "there's not enough interest", or "you can use the existing materials even if they're stuff you don't want to play". Well, obviously there's interest or the subject would not keep coming up in various different versions, and the other is simply people not wanting to change how the instrument is approached, as if it will somehow "dirty" the hallowed ground.
You guys who asked are simply right - the materials don't exist, you're being told to take long ways around because most steel players don't really understand what you want, and I don't see it changing soon.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 12:28 am
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Indeed a question that goes to the heart of "expanding interest and the playing community" of PSG.
And b0b, one of the most lucid and concise "short course in Pedal Steel 201" I've seen.
I think the truth is, whether a player understands music theory or not, they are using the same tools to improvise back-up, fills, and solos whether they applied basic music theory to the instrument, or "went the long way around" to learn one lick at a time "by ear".
While I understand the desire to be motivated by study material that reflects the taste of the student, there is still invaluable basic knowledge in some of the dated "country" courses out there. I started in the late 70's with exactly the same kind of influences you mention, David, and while I was not interested in learning "Red River Valley", I recognized that the same concepts, chord positions, licks and moves from Winnie Winston's seminal tutorial book could be adapted into the country-rock I was playing at the time. The chord moves and ideas I got form "Shenandoah" fit right into the Commander Cody and New Riders tunes we were playing. Honestly, some of the licks I got from Winnie's book are still in my vocabulary nearly every time I play today.
Just for example, much of the early hot-doggery of Joaquin Murphey, Jerry Byrd, and Buddy Emmons obviously draws on the even earlier Hawaiian players they had to listen to. If any of them said "this Hawaiian stuff is old school- I want to learn hot country"... well, I'm not sure their styles would have had near the flair and swing they did.
That being said, I've been working on books/study materials to address just these kinds of questions for some time, and they will end up being massive amounts of work for I would guess, little (financial) return. I think this has been put forward as one of the reasons you don't see "rock pedal steel 101" in the Mel Bay catalog. One of the biggest stumbling blocks is that the key to transferring the most information in the quickest fashion is Music Theory. And a surprising amount of "students" just don't want to deal with theory.
I am open to any suggestions and ideas, I'd love to get some useful materials out there. |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 7:22 am
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Mark, I hope you get it done - I think you'd find a lot of takers for a specific alt rock/country rock course even if it doesn't make you rich. I'll put my name down right now. You did ask, so here's some ideas:
I'd like to see some discourse on creating atmospherics: all those interesting pads, reverse slides and spine tingling harmonics. This never gets discussed in the old books but is one of the most common and creative aspects of pedal steel today.
Convention busting licks in the style of: Sneaky Pete, Al Perkins, Neil Flanz, Rusty Young, Red Rhodes, Lloyd Maines, Jon Graboff, Robert Randolf, etc, etc... but don't leave it there: how do these licks relate to/break out of the scale, chord or tone centre they are playing off? Licks are no good on their own.
Theory. We can take it, honest.
After studying a few courses it seems to me that passing chords and chromatic tones are the things that really flesh out the particular style of music you're playing. This is a mysterious and black art which needs some illumination. Leastways, I personally don't have a clue.
How to take what you may already know about country playing and stretch it into rock territory, much along the lines of b0b's post.
A little more accent on the C pedal. Mine just lays there. But enough about my personal problems:roll:
No need to answer here, just some thoughts anyway. I might post some of these as new threads if I can think of ways to word the questions. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 8:01 am
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Mark, glad to hear it. A couple of us had had an idea to collaborate on something but I'd not had the time to even outline things.
What I'm hearing from guys in their 20's who play in metal, hardcore and punk bands is really the same thing those of us want who grew up (musically) playing the country-rock of the 60's/70's - stuff that's not so style-specific. There are hundreds of guitar books that teach beginners or intermediate players a wide range of material, covering everything from country to folk to rock to metal in the same book. sure, it's not "deep" - but it IS a starting point.
My thought was a few "pockets" (2-3 fret areas on the neck) where a player can grab a I, IV, V and a couple minors, and play pentatonic riffs.
Most of these players are 6-stringers. they don't normally think in terms of scales, they think in terms of two main pockets - one major pentatonic position, and one "minor" or "blues" position, a 3 fret shift up.
Steel players approach things with chord theory and scale patterns. Guitar players don't often use (knowingly) 6ths, 9ths, or other extended chords, and they rarely play scales, even in practice.
If someone could adapt thise two primary "pockets' (the "minor" version also known as the "blues box") to the steel it would give a solid basis for playing any kind of music.
Again, style-independant is the key to converting 6-stringers and country rockers. And the position stuff is what their musical ind "hears" and "sees" for the most part.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 10:04 am
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| Music is music. If you internalize the structure of music - intervals,scales and chords - and they reside in your mind and ears instead of on a guitar neck or a page of tab you can play any kind of music on any instrument quite easily.To do it brilliantly is another subject. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 10:09 am think like a rock steel player
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I think that if you want to learn pedal steel, you should learn to think like a steel player. I'm not interested in trying to teach someone how to steel by rote licks from popular songs. That's the real "long way around", IMHO, because you never learn how to construct your own.
Back to the lesson:
| Quote: |
| A little more accent on the C pedal. Mine just lays there. |
The position two frets back from the root fret is perhaps the most useful position in country rock. For example, the 10th fret in the key of E. Use your 2nd and 3rd pedal (commonly called 'B' and 'C'). Start with your thumb on the 7th string. That's the root tone, the E note. Find the ascending scale at the 10th fret from there, using the 'B' and 'C' pedals as necessary.
You'll notice that your 'C' pedal on the 4th string gives you the same note as what's on the the first string - the high E. Something funny about that bend from this position, though - it's the basis of Johnny B. Goode and hundreds of other rock guitar solos. Hit the 1st string, then the 4th string, then press the 'C' pedal. The bend is the b7th note to the root. Rock guitarists do this bend all the time on their 2nd string.
You probably noticed, as you found that ascending scale, that it's dark and "minor" sounding. This is because the 3rd tone of the scale (6th string, pedal 'B') is 3 half-steps above E. Not 4 half-steps like the note from the E chord at the 12th fret.
Why does this minor scale work in rock, over an E major chord? Well, it doesn't always, but there's a tradition in blues to play minor scales over major chords, and some rock forms are based on blues. You'll learn after a while that the 10th fret in E works well for rock solos and fills, but not for pads over the E chord. You'll have to go to the 12th fret for that.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 10:21 am
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Go, b0b!
Some fantastic ideas fellers, more please. Feel free to email me directly with in depth suggestions, it's a big help. |
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Jim Eaton
From:
Santa Susana, Ca
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 11:59 am
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You can find some fun "rock" phrasing three frets up from the AB position too. Key of E at 7 w/AB ped's - go up to 10 w/AB, and like going down 2 with BC, it does not all fit, but alot of it does.
JE:-)> |
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Dave Little
From:
Atlanta
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 12:43 pm
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Go guys,
I'll pipe up and add that another good position is the A/F position. This would be your E chord at the 3rd fret. Here the A pedal toggles between root and b7th while the F lever toggles between b3rd and major 3rd. If you lower the 9th string 1/2 step, you can use it for the low root (E note) while the A pedal works the 5th string.
Dave Little
Last edited by Dave Little on 24 Jan 2007 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 3:21 pm
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This stuff is gold, thank you so much guys. I think something is starting to click about how these 'alternative' positions are used to get the most out of the particular raises and lowers they offer up. A bit like you play the 'wrong' key harmonica to get to the juciest sounding blues bends for the key your in.
David T and Matt, if this thread is getting a little ahead of you trust me, you want to save it and come back to it when you've got a solid handle on the standard major scale positions. Keep asking good questions!
I've got something else to throw into the mix: how much are harmonized scales (the bedrock of a lot of older PSG courses) stylistically a trad-country thing? ie Do country/alt rock players make much use of them and if so, do they come in rock specific flavours? Perhaps another one for Mark's book. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 6:14 pm
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| Quote: |
| I've got something else to throw into the mix: how much are harmonized scales (the bedrock of a lot of older PSG courses) stylistically a trad-country thing? ie Do country/alt rock players make much use of them and if so, do they come in rock specific flavours |
?
Alt country players use the same scales as everybody else. As I looked into the use of alternate positions for scales and harmonies I was surprized to find that the playing of guys like Lloyd Green and Buddy Emmons is substantially more advanced in every way than what is being played on most americana, alt, roots type recordings. If you can cover Lloyd or Buddy's playing even a little you will have no problem playing the new stuff as discussed on this thread.
If you learn your scales and how they lay on the neck you can play whatever music you want. There are no tricks or secrets.
The role of the steel tends to be a little different these days so there are some artistic differences sometimes. But the scales and chords are all the same.
_________________
Bob |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 8:52 pm
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| Quote: |
| I think that if you want to learn pedal steel, you should learn to think like a steel player. |
b0b, respectfully - that statement is EXACTLY the problem. Many established players have a firmly-entrenched attitude about what a "steel player" is, or how one should think...or play.
There are players who want to lear to play an instrument for its capabilities, not for its recorded history. Players that look at potential, not necessarly tradition.
And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that - but for some reason, when it comes to pedal steel, there always is.
And therein lies the rub - there are loads of ppotential players who *don't* think like "steel players" (whatever a steel player is supposed to think like - as that would seem to be something that would vary quite a bit depending on one's perception); they don't want to take the road that's forced on them; and so they are told "do it our way or go do it yourself, because if you don't like what's offered now we're not interested.".
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Max W. Thompson
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2007 8:25 am
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| One quick question guys...several times folks mentioned fills and pads...what is a "pad"? |
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Jonathan Shacklock
From:
London, UK
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Posted 22 Jan 2007 9:40 am
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| A pad is just chordal stuff in the background, usually one or two chords sustained for the bar. Think 'string section', literally padding or filling out the background. Comping (to me) implies more of a rhythmic backing but the two things are somewhat interchangable. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2007 9:46 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| I think that if you want to learn pedal steel, you should learn to think like a steel player. |
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
b0b, respectfully - that statement is EXACTLY the problem. Many established players have a firmly-entrenched attitude about what a "steel player" is, or how one should think...or play.
There are players who want to lear to play an instrument for its capabilities, not for its recorded history. Players that look at potential, not necessarly tradition. |
This is silly, off topic and counter-productive, but since it was directed at me, I'll answer it anyway.
"Thinking like a steel player" has nothing to do with what kind of music you play, or with any pre-conceived notions of what a "steel player" is. It is about understanding where the chords, notes and scales can be found on an instrument where the tuning of each string is constantly in motion. You have to understand the underlying system to play the instrument well. If you don't understand that system, you're not "thinking like a steel player" yet.
| Quote: |
| One quick question guys...several times folks mentioned fills and pads...what is a "pad"? |
Pads are chords that are sustained under a singer or lead instrumentalist. Their purpose is to provide harmonic texture and context without drawing attention away from the melody.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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