Modern vs vintage sound

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Johnny, what's better or best is all just opinions, personal tastes based largely on what a listener has been exposed to and appreciates. The variety of sounds, the playing styles and tones of popular players that I brought up, is, I think, germane to the discussion. I feel it's also undeniable, but I still welcome other opinions. I think that much of the "sameness" these days is owed to the producers and engineers, for they control what ultimately gets recorded. In the old days, the player played his sound and style, and the engineers and producers just recorded what was done. Their job was more to capture, not to mold and manipulate. There was not nearly as much desire to "fit everything into the mix" with one common tone. These days, things are muted, smoothed, and edited far more, there's no denying that. The result may be more polished and perfect, but it's done with a definite loss of personality, style, and variety.

While I can certainly appreciate what's being done today, I still long for the variety of sounds and styles of times past that is no more...the days when you could hear Emmons, Charleton, Weldon, Hal, Brumley, Stu, Sonny, Chalker, Lloyd, Pete, Mooney and Crawford...all in just a few hours on the same radio station, playing stuff that was all on the charts. Cool

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Donny's brought up another classical parallel. When I was at school you could tell the nationality of a symphony orchestra without reading the record label - English, French, Russian, American, Austrian, Czech, East or West German. Now they have become globalised and all sound the same.
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Steve Sycamore · From: Sweden

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Johnny Cox · Posted 16 Oct 2019 6:11 pm

I really wasn't referring to recorded sound in my original post. I was fortunate to be raised in Nashville before the sounds of the 60s started changing. I got to hear Hal, Weldon, Lloyd, Pete as well as Buddy E. and Buddy C. straight out of their amps.
On another note my son, Ryan brought his 76 PP over and I have to say it is one of those exceptional sounding guitars. Heads above either of the ones I owned. I spent lots of time in Buddy's basement listening to him play and also playing the Blade myself. This 76 is right up there.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

I donâ€™t know nothing for sure but Iâ€™m more inclined too believe itâ€™s the
Indian not the arrow!
John Huey made his Modern Zum tone one of the best in live shows an records music.
Iâ€™m sure Johnnys Sho Bud will inspire him too play and will find new untapped inspiration from the tone of this Bud.
Know in Johnnyâ€™s case itâ€™s the Indian an the Arrow a perfect combination!

Johnny Cox · Posted 17 Oct 2019 3:46 pm

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Johnny Cox · Posted 17 Oct 2019 11:10 pm

I love the sound of both of my rigs. I'm really only saying that there us a definite difference between the modern sound and the vintage. Not at all suggesting one is better than the other. As Donny said, it really comes down to opinion and personal preference. I have many steel players that I love to listen to, they all sound different but all good.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

chuck abend · From: Kansas City,Mo.64155 U.S.A.

The best Tone I ever had is the Thomas D10 cowboy model with the Alumatone pickups.
The pickups checkout 5K ea which surprised me.I don't
understand the internal design to achive the clear tone that they get.See the Thomas post in Pedal steel page 2.I've owned Zum MCI CARTER Encore but the Thomas outshines them all.It's the Cadillac of steel Guitars.High quality construction tone,playability. Chuck Abend

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Bobby Nelson · From: North Carolina, USA

When I first got my Legend, I tinkered with about 4 or 5 pups, and wondered why I couldn't replicate the old Bud sound. I posted about it, and a lot of you fellas comments and old hand experience led me to the "nothing sounds like a Bud but a Bud" conclusion.

That being said, I found, after a lot of trial and error, that an Alumitone in the Legend, played through my Twin with K-120s, gives me a really killer, more classic than modern tone, This is what I'm going with, hoping to develop my own tone as I go - it's simply great tone, even though it's more classic Chalker sounding than classic Charleton.

David Ball · From: North Carolina High Country

I have an Alumitone in my Excel, and it sounds great. Still not the classic Sho Bud sound, but like Bobby said, it sounds more classic than modern. It has some of the same bite the old Buds have.

Dave

Dale Rottacker · From: Walla Walla Washington, USA

Just now re-reading this thread, so many great observations here.

Johnny you certainly have a storied and envious history. I never knew what a Pedal Steel was except from hearing it on the radio or on records, with Hello Mrs Johnson being the song that pushed me over the edge exclaiming to my Dad, "THATS what I want to play". After that whoever I was hearing on all those Buck Owens records I had, whether Mooney/Brumley/McDonald all grabbed me by the heart. Later the Suite Steel LP grabbed me with Buddy/JayDee/Rusty/Sneaky Pete ... I really loved how Sneaky sounded on this...

When I finally acquired my first Pedal Steel, Fender 400, I had yet not seen a one played with my own eyes. And getting my first Maverick was from a recommendation from someone saying "you NEED a Sho~Bud". I still have the first Pro lll I custom ordered, because in my mind, THAT was the guitar to have.

Today I play an MSA Legend, and a Rittenberry Prestige ... Two very different guitars, each with their own personality and characteristics. One Modern, and one more Vintage. That said, I'm smiling no mater which guitar I'm playing because the tone of both falls well within my "Tone Envelope". Two different sounds, yet both valid "makes me smile" sounds which I enthusiastically am able to wrap my ear around.

I've had Sho~Buds/Mullens/Rittenberry's/MSA's, all guitars were loved for different reasons. There are still some brands I'd love to have, Emmon's/Zum/JCH/Infinity/ blah blah, sadly I may need to start a Go-Fund me to realize my dreams, but we can dream can't we?
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*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
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http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
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https://www.quilterlabs.com

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I'n telling you how old i am. There was a difference when bridge rollers came along as opposed to the strings going across the actual casting as in the Bigsby, first Sho Buds and Marlens. You had to keep a drop of oil where the strings crossed. We didn't seem to notice tuning problems back then but we broke a lot of strings.
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Jeffery Mercer · Posted 25 Aug 2024 7:33 pm **.Componets of the amps & Guitars**

I play pedal steel because I first heard Lloyd Green, Tom Brumley in Bucks Band, before that it was my Uncle Al Mercer who played Lap Steel. For Hawkshaw Hawkins (because there was no such thing as a pedal steel guitar)…I. Might add that the amps and guitars of that Era were different than today there componets had everything to do with there sound, I’m talking about the tubes, the transformers that were used had everything to do with the sound being heard right down to the cords you used, the wire used in the pickups and how they were wound, the Speakers that were used, and how they were made… these are the things that gave you the sound that you all now crave, even the strings on the steels were different…then you get into the woods that were used to make the pedal steels the types of wood used, the quality, the strings and tunings used, and lastly the Steel players TOUCH and picking approach whether hard or soft attack… there’s just so much more envolved than just naming a certain Pedal Steel whether Sho-Bud Or ZB or whatever…it was a different time.
Respectfully submitted
Jeffery
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Jeffery S Mercer

David Laveau · From: Rocky Mountain High, CO

Bill Fisher · From: Oklahoma, USA

I like the BIGSBY sound. Thank you.

Bill

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Totally agree with Johnny Cox here. Those vintage Sho-Bud permanents have classic Sho-Bud tone. I despise modern light weight action guitars. You can’t rest your feet in the pedals or knee levers without an instant reaction. The older guitars had more resistance in their feel for positive feedback for phrasing. When I heard Brumley playing through a ZB and a Twin Reverb I searched for that sound. It was when I was in Bobbie Seymour’s shop when he told me I have to get a ZB. He told me “ you’ll love the sound and not like the mechanics”. He was absolutely right. When I found my first ZB I sold all my Emmons and Sho-Buds. I had found MY sound that I was looking for. Cast aluminum parts and birdseye maple wood. Vintage sound. I think your observations here Johnny are right on.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

In my area of Iowa, if you want to stay busy playing, you have to mix classic rock, southern rock and country to please the crowd. One distinct style of playing or steel sound characteristics won't get you much seat time. I have to use effects along with guitar and steel licks to fit in. Playing "Smart Dressed Man" with traditional steel won't sell it to the public. My steels are 1975 and 1976 birdseye maple U-12 MSA's with Telonics pickups and rack pre-amps and amps. However, I still have my 1974 refurbished Session 400 used with analog delay and reverb pedals that I love for traditional sound when I fill in with a traditional country band.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Revelation preamp, Carbon Copy Delay and Hall Of Fame Reverb, Crown XLS 1002, 2- 15" Eminence Wheelhouse speakers, ShoBud Pedal, Effects Pedals. 1949 Epiphone D-8.

Bobby Martin · From: Virginia, USA

I hear "classic" '60's tone in my head every gig I play because those sounds hooked me from the start. Sho-Bud single neck through a Deluxe Reverb with JBL in my classic country band for "that sound" and a modern Sho-Pro Lloyd Green in a variety band for "that sound". Never use chorus, phase or delay, just amp reverb or occasional overdrive. The great steel players around Wash D.C. in the '70's- Buddy Charleton, Tommy Hannum, Pete Finney, Bruce Bouton all played classic straight steel plugged right in to the amp. I feel fortunate to have witnessed all of them when I got started.
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Retired my "Flying Pro III" playin' gigs with the "little bud" in the Northern Shenandoah Valley.

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

I feel lucky. I may be a baby steel player, but my impulse-purchase instrument is a vintage ZB that sounds incredible. I happened to have a JBL K120 sitting around in an old Boogie amp too (the Boogie isn't great for steel, sadly - too much midrange). I then got a modern Milkman amp that targets those classic sounds, and viola! ZB into a tube amp with a JBL, the classic tone.

The sounds that inspired me were country-rock and hippie-tonk Americana... Jerry Garcia with the Grateful Dead, Sneaky Pete with the Flying Burrito Brothers, Buddy Cage with NRPS, Ben Keith with Neil Young. It's all dirtier and sloppier and cruder than the sweet sounds of Nashville. I'm good with fuzz and phasers and echo and other period-correct effects, but I suspect I would have a much harder time getting an inspiring sound out of a smooth modern rig with an ultra-clean amp and lush digital reverb.

And, just for myself as a guitarist, I've always liked guitars that fight me some. I'll take a Tele over a PRS any day, a vintage Martin over a modern Taylor. Vintage style instruments aren't always the easiest to play! So I'm right at home with the ZB's action and learning to work on that complicated beast. (The other day at a guitar shop with my spouse, I dismissed a recent Martin I tried for "not enough middle finger"...)
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1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

I've played/owned three different brands of steels, but my favorite sound of the three guitars I've played over the years is my Jackson Blackjack Custom. I chose to play a Jackson because it reminds me a lot of the sounds of a Sho-Bud. In 2009, I was watching a video on YouTube where Bobbe Seymour was talking to David Jackson, and Bobbe described the Jackson as being similar to a 1963 Sho-Bud, but it's new. I think the GFI was a great guitar and had a great tone, a cross between vintage and modern, but the Jackson has a similar sound to a vintage Sho-Bud, and when I tried out the Madison '63 in Atlanta in '09, I loved the vintage sound because even though I never really played a Sho-Bud, I heard how they sounded and how beautiful the sound of a Sho-Bud is because I'm a fan of Sho-Bud steels too. After playing the Jackson Madison '63, I decided that the Jackson Steel would be my next steel, and what I like to do now is play it with some of my favorite country records of the nineties and see how it sounds while Emmons and Franklin guitars might be on the record. I love both modern and classic steel sounds, they both sound awesome to me. My Jackson has a Shot Jackson pickup and it sounds awesome!

Duane Reese · Posted 7 Sep 2024 7:40 pm

In my experience, it's all an aggregate of the different parts, but when it comes to "modern vs. vintage", my feeling tells me that the biggest factor is the pickups.

I've owned an embarrassingly large number of steels over the years (over 20, various brands) and they all sound a little different, but probably the best A-B comparison was a Blanton that I had Jerry Wallace rewind the pickups on to be more like True-Tones (the originals had to be rewound because the construction of Blanton pickups is wildly incompatible with anything else). That made it go from having the "vintage" sound to the "modern" sound, in a big way, and I loved the results.

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