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Topic: Keys of songs modified to accommodate the guitar player? |
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 2:50 am |
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Willin' is the perfect example..Lowell George wrote it and sang it in G, most guys sing it in G including me but when Linda sang it in E the earth shook. When we play out as a trio with my wife, we do it in E, nobody complains, in fact..the reverse. The "good track" in my mind is the Linda track and that's the one I emulate on Steel or Guitar. I have found that I like playing it in both keys but I prefer E probably because of the lower tonalities but I practice this song in 3 different keys for the comfort of positions and that to me is the point. Playing songs in different keys is not a bad thing but not being prepared can be or worse, will be.
True, some songs just lay better in the original artist keys, but we as players should be able to deliver the goods, perhaps with a few modifications, regardless of the key.
Typically though when we hear tunes that are in flats , they most likely were not recorded in those keys, the final track may have been sped up or slowed down to suit air play. Sure there are a few instances where studio bands tuned down but my thinking is that is the exception, not the rule.
Practice in a few different keys, step out of the box. I mentioned Willin' above, I probably play around that progression a few times each week in both E and G...amazing things can happen when playing out of different positions.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 7:51 am
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| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
| Pete Burak wrote: |
The singer in one recent band told the Tele guy he wants to do "Only Daddy Gonna Walk The Line", in "D"!
He said, "Yeah, just kick it off in D".
   
[Ya might have to be a guitar player to get that one]. |
I'm sure we can find many examples of this kind of difference in keys. I have played that song in ksys that were different from the original, and the guitar players were good enough to play the licks somewhat close to the original. Did it sound exactly like record? No. But I bet no one in the crowds ever noticed or cared, unless they were a guitar player that knew how the licks were originally played.
The most important thing for us to realize is, we are a sideman and really don't have the right to tell any singer what key they should sing the song in, although I have been in bands where someone would make a suggestion to the singer about doing it in a key better suited for the singer, often taking it into keys like Ab or Bb. But almost never was it changed for the guitar or steel guitar player. Unless you were the leader of the band, I really wouldn't recommend you telling the singer, and maybe leader, to change keys because it better suits you. If you do, see how long you will have that gig. |
I guess ya had to be there!
This singer fancy's himself to be a Waylon impersonator (He graduated from Karaoke to starting his own band), and just got done playing the first 20 sec of the Studio version for us (like we never heard it before), by holding his smart phone up to his microphone at rehearsal.
I was just pointing out that some songs will never sound like the original if you change the key, due to a given guitar lick (in this case).
I tell singers this type of stuff all the time, with no fear of losing a gig.
I say "Any good singer should be able to move up or down one whole step to accomodate the rest of the band... every once in a while you're gonna have to do that".
We're not a human Karaoke machine.
Fwiw... imho, with regard to this "losing the gig" thing...The Steel player auditions the band, not the other way around.
The Steel player decides who they will make sound better, not the singer.
That's just my mindset though.
This guy turned out to be terminally confused about when/were to come in, how to arrange and play songs, ect...
I played a few gigs with them but had to drop out of the band due to frustration with the lack of performance expierience. |
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Sean Borton
From:
Winnipeg Manitoba, Canada
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 9:32 am
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Seems to be two camps here.
1: The singer always get's his way, and it's our job to make him sound good. (has merit)
2: The players that consider the signature riff and and know that some things are not "meant" to be moved without consideration. (also has merit)
Everyone grab your instruments. Let's go... Country Boy... Key of F. (singer can't sing as high as Albert or Ricky) |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 9:47 am
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Pete said:
| Quote: |
Fwiw... imho, with regard to this "losing the gig" thing...The Steel player auditions the band, not the other way around.
The Steel player decides who they will make sound better, not the singer.
That's just my mindset though. |
Might be true up there, but down here, if you said to the band that you couldn't play the song because you can't play what the band wants (intros, licks, solos, endings), in the key they want it, you probably will be continuing your search for a band. The sidemen are just that. They should never be dictating what the singer does. And the band hires the steel guitar player, not the other way around.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 9:55 am
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| Quote: |
Fwiw... imho, with regard to this "losing the gig" thing...The Steel player auditions the band, not the other way around.
The Steel player decides who they will make sound better, not the singer. |
Yeah, right. But I beg to differ.
One thing for sure is true, a constant, and should be foremost in the minds of all steel players:
NO SIDEMAN IS IRREPLACEABLE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
If you don't believe that statement, you're in for a life of bitter disappointment professionally. And I know several players, great musicians all, who are chronically under-employed or unemployed because they have yet to grasp that simple truism.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?
Last edited by Herb Steiner on 29 Nov 2013 9:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 9:58 am
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| Sean Borton wrote: |
| Everyone grab your instruments. Let's go... Country Boy... Key of F. (singer can't sing as high as Albert or Ricky) |
No problem Sean, we put our capos on the tenth fret and it's almost original.
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 29 Nov 2013 5:47 pm
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well one thing needs to be said, playing in a band is always about the songs, it is never about the licks, we should always accommodate whoever the singer is. Singers should not compromise the natural keys they sing in because we can play the song in the stock key which may be different. If you want to play the stock key because that's where Vince sang it and John played it, you sing it.
Bands with "front" singers are trying to accomplish a 4 hour gig ( 40 + songs ) with perhaps as many as a 200 song repertoire to draw from..those evil requests.... They are not doing a 10 or 12 song showcase of ONE artists songs. If you think I'm wrong, you try singing 40 popular cover songs in one night in the recorded keys. I can't...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 30 Nov 2013 6:05 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
One thing for sure is true, a constant, and should be foremost in the minds of all steel players:
NO SIDEMAN IS IRREPLACEABLE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
And I know several players, great musicians all, who are chronically under-employed or unemployed because they have yet to grasp that simple truism. |
I'll go along with that! I'd also add that no instrument is irreplaceable. There are too many players that think "Only a _________ (fill in any instrument) should play that song." Obviously, when we say that a band wouldn't sound as good without a steel guitar, we're in the minority...like it, or not.  |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2013 10:25 am
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I have found out thru the years that one reason the singers change keys from the original is because most or a lot anyway play rhythm guitar and they can't play along in E flat or C# so they move the key to make their playing easier even though it's the wrong key for them to sing in. Got one guy that does Something in My Heart in D because he don't like F when F fits his voice much better.
Just like Look at Us that's in E flat to E. Some will sing whole song in E or another key cause they can't play in E flat and change keys mid stream.
Most of the guys and girls I backup that don't play guitar do the songs in the original key with a few exceptions of course. I have singers that are on our Opry show that sing a song in totally wrong key for them just because it's easier for them to play rhythm in another key. We just tell them to put the guitar up and we will do it in the right key for their voice which is most of the time, the original key.
Again, I'm in a different position. I own the band and the show. They work for me so that gives me the privilege of being able to tell what key we do a song in, that is, if their voice fits it. If not, we move the key to where they can sing it and do the best we can. Steel really doesn't make a lot of difference but the fiddle is a killer to me.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 30 Nov 2013 11:42 am
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Henry's right.A really good singer can usually nail the original key,just because they have the talent and training to sing over a wide sonic range,just as a steeler can often play above the 12th fret.Capable singers who can play more than a few cowboy chords,however are a good deal harder to come by,and I'm sure the ones who don't capo are at some risk of changing the key to suit their instrumental abilities,such as they are.There is a vid of Alan Jackson banging away all fatdumbandhappy in G after the band has gone to A.This whole bit about it being difficult to play parts in a different key than the original is much more of a problem for six-stringers than for steelers.Six-stringers have to rely much more on open-string tonalities and finger bends than steel players do,as well as having oftentimes radically to change a fingering to play in a different key when oftentimes all we need do is move the bar a couple of frets.
ALSO...In the threads about how steel is dying out and the threads about how modern country is just corporate rock played a little sweeter it gets mentioned that much of the signature instro material is done on six-string,and it has also been said the signature material is an integral part of the song(that session players are denied songwriting credit is a conversation for another day),so I'm saying in that context that making those beleagured six-stringers play in the wrong key is quite a bit like making the singer sing the wrong words.Herb,Donny,and Tony's assertions about sidemen being entirely replaceable are true,but it's equally true that sidemen are just as free to take a better gig if the bandleader/lead singer isn't getting it done. |
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Jim Williams
From:
Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!
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Posted 1 Dec 2013 11:15 am
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I'm certainly not a singer, but do understand changing the key so it fits your vocal range. What I've often wondered about though is changing to a sharp or flat instead of a standard key...does a half notch really make that much difference?
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2013 5:55 pm
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| Jim Williams wrote: |
| I'm certainly not a singer, but do understand changing the key so it fits your vocal range. What I've often wondered about though is changing to a sharp or flat instead of a standard key...does a half notch really make that much difference? |
That's what I've been saying. I wouldn't think so. I sing a few songs and not really being a singer with good vocal range, I can still go up or down a whole step and sound about as bad as I do in the original key.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roual Ranes
From:
Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Dec 2013 7:35 pm
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This key thing is exactly why I quit playing oprys a long time age. Crazy in Ab was the killer for me and I said enough is enough. That was the night I sung
Folsum Prison Blues in Eb to make my point. Since then I haven't done shows..........no fun. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 6 Dec 2013 3:53 am
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there is another way to enlighten this subject if you want to be an active musician locally , part time or full time and want the phone to ring , play the song in whatever key is on the set list.
Now of course there are some very strange keys we all hate, but none the less, rarely do we get called to do Crazy in Ab or Folsom in Eb without some form of advanced warning. But still..if you can play Crazy in two positions, you can play it in Ab, it may not sound to your ears like it should so simplify and find the sweet spots that work.
Folsom in Eb is like Folsom in D, again it may not lay exactly like you want but it's about the song anyway.
I am fortunate to work with a few different local artists generally I already know the set lists and keys but the one band with a Gal singer has some odd keys, she sends me the set lists, the few songs with odd keys then I study and prepare. I don't turn down the gig.
rise up to the challenge...
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Chuck Thompson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2013 4:48 am
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I think the issue for six string guitar is as mentioned...."signature" licks that use low open notes and occasionally signature licks that use higher open strings (think Buck's version of "Memphis").
Sometimes the remedy is the dreaded capo and sometimes a quick detuning of the low "E" string to Eb or D (Folsom Prison - Day Tripper - Only Daddy). A lot of times the rest can be sorted out easily from there. I have tuned the low E down to C for songs like Highway 101's "Honky Tonk Heart" to get into the baritone guitar range of the intro.
Other than being in a "Tribute" style or strict cover band, I don't see why there is such an issue really.
Some keys are friendlier to some instruments but if you are presenting yourself as a professional (and as Tony said..."you want the phone to ring") you probably should be at the point where the key of the song shouldn't be devastating. Remember that Johnny B Goode was recorded in the key of Bb. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Dec 2013 6:08 am
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| Herb Steiner wrote: |
Played a gig a couple years back filling in for my buddy, and the fiddler/guitarist/singer made this big intro "now we're gonna feature the great Herb Steiner on a famous steel guitar tune he will regale you all with, one entitled 'Steelin' the Blues."
Then he turned to me and said "Key of D." I came back with "Eric, the song's in Db." He got a smartass look in his face and in a smarmy voice told me "Hey, the singer calls the key!"
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I think I would have had to "remind" him that the singer doesn't "call the key" on an instrumental that someone else is playing! |
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2013 1:37 pm If Paul can do it...
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| For what it's worth Paul Franklin plays the Standard Days of Wine And Roses in D major on the Slydin' album. The orchestration is all PSG. That may be why he chose D instead of F Major. |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 14 Feb 2014 2:21 am
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Don that is worth a lot and very interesting.
I had some info that would I think be worthwhile but Stuart just reminded me how I rubbed you and your buddy Buck the wrong way when I misspelled a word in that last Franklin topic. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Feb 2014 4:31 am
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Before I started on the steel, I had long experience as an engineer, bass player and producer. As an engineer I learned that a singer can often sing a song only in a narrow range of keys or you can't get a comfortable vocal sound, and comfort is what the listener pays for.
As a bass player I never used open strings; that way, anything I did, I could instantly transpose. As a producer, and a musician generally, you need to be close to the original for any musical signatures to be recognisable. If you're miles away, the listener knows it sounds "wrong" without consciously knowing that you're now in a range of the instrument with a different colour. The classical word is "tessitura".
As I progress with the steel, I intend to make sure I don't learn anything I can't change.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 14 Feb 2014 11:46 am
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| Quote: |
| As a bass player I never used open strings; that way, anything I did, I could instantly transpose |
Just for fun Ian, how would you play this without the open E and A strings?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8LDBgr01m4
_________________
Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 14 Feb 2014 12:14 pm
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Point taken, Joachim - never say "never"! Let's say I tended to avoid them if I could....
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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