| Author |
Topic: 26 Years On Pedal Steel and Cannot Play A Melody |
Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 12:25 pm |
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Pete says-
I don't believe for a second that any Steel player can't teach themselves to play the melody of any song they want to learn.
You don't ever need to play the melody... unless that's what you set out to do.
The meldoy is only one choice that stands next to an infinite number of other things to play.
I'm pretty sure the audience knows what song it is...
Why should I play the same notes the singer is singing???
Do I have to play the same thing every time we play this song now?
Bud says "I Agree."
The question is, If someone has been playing for 26 years, and they can't play a melody, any melody, then why the heck not? |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 12:34 pm
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Jimmy Day was once asked if he played the solo on Ray Price's recording of Night Life. He answered "No, but I could have!"
Pete
Nobody said anyone has to play the melody in any given song situation, but not being able to is a musical, technical, or intellectual shortcoming. It means the player doesn't know intervals, or more importantly, scales and their positions on the guitar neck. "Do Re Mi" is not quantum physics.
What we do onstage... or should do, IMHO... is attempt to communicate with the audience, because songs with lyrics have stories to tell that are not only communicated by the lyric, but also by the melody, the tempo being used, and the way in which the musicians play and phrase. We don't have the luxury of words, so we have to tell the story of the song the best way we can, and sometimes that best way is reiterating what the singer is saying with the lyrics.
And audiences usually respond best to a performance when it's something they can recognize. It all depends upon whom you're playing for.
Just sayin...
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 12:38 pm
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if you play new country, you dont have to worry about such trivial noodling because there isnt any melody - its all some spoken/half sung set-up for the chorus, which isnt really a chorus anymore, its the "hook" - they call the art of doing this a "craft" in NashVegas that only a select few can pull off.
but back to the topic.....
you have to HEAR the melody in your head, you cant go by shapes/patterns/boxes/etc and thats how most approach it. i've been guilty of lazy melody in both my playing and singing - i always considered it "my interpretation" of the melody, but as i've matured, i realized it for what it was - being lazy and not learning it properly - i think you should learn it right first, then put your style to it.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 12:45 pm
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| Jerome Hawkes wrote: |
| i've been guilty of lazy melody in both my playing and singing - i always considered it "my interpretation" of the melody, but as i've matured, i realized it for what it was - being lazy and not learning it properly - i think you should learn it right first, then put your style to it. |
Jerome
Well said. When you learn it correctly, your interpretation will be all the more valid.
I would suggest to anyone interested in listening to a melodic player, get the Bear Family CD of Jimmy Day's first two albums. Then listen to the way he plays on the songs from his "Steel and Strings" album. He plays so closely to the melody, and with the phrasing and expression of the singer that he was, that the listener can't help but hear the lyrics, and therefore the story of the song.
BTW, there is no string section on that recording, just Tommy Jackson playing overdubbed country fiddle and beautifully at that.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Rick Collins
From:
Claremont , CA USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 12:52 pm
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I really hate listening to musicians who must "feel their way" through a melody.
Don't real professionals rehearse?
Large orchestras, real pros. have their own repertoire and rehearse for perfection. |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 1:20 pm
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back when i was playing a lot of bluegrass festivals, we would always get these "hot-licks" pickers that would come by and try to blow you away with endless runs of pentatonic vomit - we would always start playing simple tunes like "Buffalo Gals" - you can immediately tell who can play and who cant on stuff like that....its bliss to have one of these note-vomiters slide out of the jam when he cant pick up the melody to Buffalo Gals which everyone has heard since childhood...hehehe then we can get back to turning "Roanoke" into a minor key breakdown, turning all the maj 3ds into min 3ds - but thats how you learn this stuff - the best musicians i've ever known really could get inside that melody and turn it anyway they wanted - inside/outside/displaced by an eight note, on and on.
i think it also helps to be a singer - you should, in reality, be singing on your instrument
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 1:41 pm
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Herb said:
| Quote: |
| When you learn it correctly, your interpretation will be all the more valid. |
Well said also. I feel that if you learn the way someone else played a song/solo/lick you get a better understanding of your neck and if you really think about what is going on technically, you gain a better understanding of music and theory. If you copy the lick without any thought as to what is going on, you won't learn much. After that, you can branch out and try to "improve" it or "make it your own". That is another great learning process.
Some people disagree with copying what another has played. But think of it this way, just about every profession in existence has involved learning what others in the field have done before you. A doctor learns based on doctor's experiences before them. Then they are free to try to develop new techniques to better themselves and the field of medicine. Remember when a gall bladder removal required a big incision with ugly scars afterwards? Now, 2 small holes in the belly and one in the belly button, and there you go. I can't even see my scars. That's progress.
I feel the same principle applies to steel guitar.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 1:42 pm
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Two of my favorite musicians in the world are Lloyd Green and Jerry Douglas - not going out on much of a limb there - two good favorites to have!
I was re-reading an interview from a couple yers ago with Jerry Douglas at puremusic.com.
Jerry had Lloyd play on a tune on his last solo CD, "Glide." Years ago he was learning pedal steel but eventually threw in the towel, he's commented about that in the past. But I thought the section I quoted below from this interiview was germane to this thread:
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JD: I messed with the steel for a while, but to do that right you have to have a different physical touch than I have playing a dobro. And it started to interfere with my dobro playing. So I just figured if I want to hear really good steel guitar, I'm not going to play. I'm going to call Lloyd Green. Lloyd played on my first Haul of Fame show last week. I think that was the highlight for me, to hear him. He played the old Johnny Paycheck song "Jukebox Charlie"--it was incredible, and it brought people to their feet.
PM: Holy jeez.
JD: It was so cool to hear Lloyd can play again like that, in that setting.
PM: Unbelievable.
JD: People don't hear that anymore. It's gone.
PM: No. And the youngins don't even know that it ever existed.
JD: They don't know how to do it.
PM: No.
JD: They know how to play backup and make a nice bed underneath the vocal, but they don't know how to take a solo. They don't know how to be a singer.
PM: Right.
JD: Lloyd is the guy. He's the master.
PM: Wow.
JD: He's knows exactly what to say. |
Jerry might be getting a little extreme in referring to newer players near the end not knowing how to take a solo, but as far as what he sees in Nashville studios and what many producers allow, he might not be too far off.
But the gist of the quote to me is how Lloyd Green knows how to be a "singer" on his intrument, as does Jerry.
_________________
Mark |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 2:01 pm
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So basically this fellow played back-up for 26 years and not one time over the past 2 and half decades while practicing at home to improve his skill and technique did he feel it necessary or important to play the melody to a song, any song.
Roger has this exactly correct, it's not about 26 yeas as a backup player it's about 26 years as a musician...of which..if this is true, he may have been playing for 26 years but most likely he repeated the first year 26 times. After playing for 26 years, it would not be foolish to assume a player could hear the melody of a song and pull it off cold , that is, if he or she knew there Instrument. It wouldn't have to be perfect but something close and similar.
I ran across a young fella at a GC last weekend maybe 24 or 25 years old, he told me he has been playing Mandolin in a BG band and has been playing Mandolin since 12 years old. I picked up a Mandolin and started playing my sloppy version of Turkey in the Straw...of which he said..how does it go ? Well son..it goes like this....
"I usually throw strikes but tonight I can't because I have a hang nail"
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Ben Jones
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 2:51 pm
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| notes, intervals, scales, etc...no technical knowledge of them is required to play a melody or anything else. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 2:52 pm
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I don't think it's that important.
You said yourself the guy can play fine backup.
As an analogy, I would expect the recognized masters of pedal steel guitar to have albums out with 100% original compositions (at least one all original, right?).
They don't. They're not Melody writers.
This guy is not a Melody player.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 26 Mar 2012 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 3:16 pm
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Well.. I guess I am to be considered a sucky steel player.. I have been at it 32-33 years, and can't play melody with a gun to my head... That being said, I have been on a LOT of albums.. good albums that were critically acclaimed, been on a major label/national release album, and have always been in the top bands locally, no matter where I lived, until severe tinnitus ended my playing days.
Yet I was always dreadful at learning the melodies of songs.. Yeah thats great at home, or for entertaining guests or small groups of people, but it never hurt me at all. I made a living, and raised my kids for years with my steel, and was always lousy at playing full melodies... Never heard a complaint in many years of playing.. I can play MAYBE 4 or 5 instrunentals, and only because they just happen to fall "in my wheelhouse".. There are a LOT of steel players that are good at playing songs, that fall flat on their noses when it comes to being in a band.. I know it for a fact, as I was out gigging 6-7 nights while they were at home playing instrumentals. Sorry for the persnickety attitude, but this isn't the first time i have felt belittled because I wasn't a good melody/instumental player...
Garcia probably couldn't carry the melody in a song if you welded a handle on it, yet his steel playing will live on ad infinitum because the guy was musical.
There something to be said for players that are adept at making other musicians sound good..... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 5:03 pm
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
....
There something to be said for players that are adept at making other musicians sound good..... bob |
I am in full agreement with this.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 5:27 pm
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| Yeah and there's something to say about "muscians" that can't play "Three Blind Mice" or "Happy Birthday To You". Ever been to a "jam" where people sit around with their expensive guitars waiting for someone else to play because they just want to "follow along". Now don't get me wrong, being a good back-up player is a great thing, an art unto itself. However, with a steel guitar or any other musical instrument, as in life, their are givers and their are takers. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 5:33 pm
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Not being condescending, just curious. If you don't consider playing the melody important, what do you do in an ensemble situation that calls for three part harmonies with steel, guitar and maybe fiddle, where you have lay your part down exactly?
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 5:50 pm
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| Not being condescending, just curious. If you don't consider playing the melody important, what do you do in an ensemble situation that calls for three part harmonies with steel, guitar and maybe fiddle, where you have lay your part down exactly? |
In 32+ years, I can't recall having EVER had a to play 3 part harmonies with 2 other instrumments, either live or recorded.. If I had to, I could have worked out my parts by ear at a rehearsal I am sure, but have never had to.. ever.... Bits and pieces of tunes, small parts of solos, intro or ending lines, yes of course, but 3 part harmony instrumentals with 3 instruments???.. Doesn't happen much in the real world at the club level or live performance in most pop, rock or country music... Unless you are into relatively obscure instrumental pieces that are of interest only to musicians.. 3 part harmonies is generally the domain of vocalists from what I have seen, and please give me some credit for having been doing this for a long time, and having at least a little street cred..bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 26 Mar 2012 6:33 pm
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melodic smellodic interval sminerval
I can hear this
do-do-do-sol-la-la-sol, mi-mi-re-re-do
I can see this
1 - 1 - 1 - 5 - 6 -6 -5 , - 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1
But when I play I don’t hear I don’t see or give a hoot about intervals.
I just put the bar in the left hand and the picks on the right and put both on the strings and pick
“Old MacDonald”
First you learn to walk (intervals) and then you just automatically run.
You don’t need to think about how or why you walk every time you want to run. |
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Ronnie Boettcher
From:
Brunswick Ohio, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 7:05 am
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I could never really play melodies on a regular 6 string guitar. Excluding Wild Wood Flower. But on my steel, I have no problem doing so. Even if someone comes up with a song I never heard, or related to, I usually can copy the melody, for a ride between verses. I never do signature licks,but play what pops into my head. Whomever is listening, or playing, will know it is the song.
_________________
Sho-Bud LDG, Martin D28, Ome trilogy 5 string banjo, Ibanez 4-string bass, dobro, fiddle, and a tubal cain. Life Member of AFM local 142 |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 8:18 am
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I just automatically start my guitar students on Christmas carols and nursery rhymes - you can tell a world of info about a student who shows up in the right t-shirt, with the right stickers on his case, and you ask him does he know "Mary Had a Little Lamb" - he'll look at you like "WHAT?" He can tap, sloppily, some desquicintillinisms at 640 n.p.s. (notes-per-second - manna to a high schooler) but there's no connection between head, ears and fingers. That's the starting point.
I've adopted several students who took piano at an early age from a terrifyingly-good musician in this town; but they, of course, wanted to "rock out" on guitar. And they have that really annoying neural plasticity of the young, and if you can just make that connection - sometimes all they need is a glimpse of how things tie together - they'll quit sleeping for three or six months, practice 18 hours a day (ahh, youth) and come back smokin' it.
Ears + head + fingers - don't leave home without it. |
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Tim Tyner
From:
Ayden, North Carolina U.S.A
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 8:30 am
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| I like the post about Jerry saying Lloyd was a master at playing melodies.I remember him making a comment in his video with Tommy about how he loved the Hank Williams songs because the melodies were so solid and powerful.Finally,Thank God David Hartley saw the need to learn the melody or We all would have missed out on some incredible steel guitar playing. |
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Chris Tweed
From:
Cardiff, Wales, UK
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 8:40 am
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The problem described by the OP is obviously not a new one. It's even commemorated in song  :
"You check out Guitar George, he knows all the chords
But it's strictly rhythm he doesn't want to make it cry or sing"
Sultans of Swing |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 9:08 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
As an analogy, I would expect the recognized masters of pedal steel guitar to have albums out with 100% original compositions (at least one all original, right?).
They don't. They're not Melody writers. |
Lloyd Green's Lloyd's of Nashville album is 100% original compositions. Most of his other albums contain originals by him as well. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 11:02 am
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| Pete Burak wrote: |
As an analogy, I would expect the recognized masters of pedal steel guitar to have albums out with 100% original compositions (at least one all original, right?).
They don't. They're not Melody writers. |
Lloyd Green's Lloyd's of Nashville album is 100% original compositions. Most of his other albums contain originals by him as well. |
That would be my expectation. A Master of the instrument has an solo album of all originals.
Keep 'em coming. I think Robert Randolph qualifies.
The thing I don't get is the time/cost/effort put in to Steel instrumentals of stuff like Star Trek Theme, I Dream of Jeannie Theme, Flinstones, etc...
If your a Master of the instrument, write 3 licks, label 'em verse, chorus, and bridge, and make it into a song.
My thoughts pretty much ditto Carlucci's.
If the guy can play anything like Bob he hasn't got a problem.
An interesting human nature thing here.
When someone does the same task as you (steel player in a band), but does it differently than you (no intrest whatsoever in playing the Melody), some folks become outraged, insisting the person is wrong. Why is that? I see it at work all the time. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 11:15 am
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| Not outraged because the don't play the melody. But not fooled either, because after 26 years they can't or most likely are just plan noodelers. Anybody, (almost) can play country/western noises. But would you please play a SONG for goodness sake? |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2012 11:34 am
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The band plays the song. Not the Steel player.
Steel players typically make singers sound better.
There is no inherent need to parrot the lead singer, unless that's what you decide to do.
I'm sure the guy throws on the music he likes and plays along with it just like everybody I've ever known who plays an instrument.
One example, I purposely don't use distorion because other players use distorion.
This guy doesn't play Melody, why should he if the band last week and the band next week have Melody players.
How can a guy stand out if he plays the same melody as the next guy.
Ever been to a bluegrass jam when the banjo players all play the same exact melody as they go around the circle? Why do they do that? I always take a single note improv solo when it's my turn. There's always one guy who says begrugingly "That didn't sound like Cripple Creek to me" when the song ends.
I say, you guys played the same thing over and over, I'm trying to be different.
If he's anything like me, all the best luck he ever had in life came from doing the opposite of the majority.
Bud, You speak as if you have heard this guy.
Is this correct?
What is he "fooling" us about?
What is he "taking" and what is he not "giving"?
We're told by the OP he plays good backup.
Playing good backup is the opposite of noodling in my book. Playing good backup means you know when to play and not play, no?
What would you tell the guy to his face about this?... What do you think his responce will be? |
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