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Topic: The number one reason standard notation is better than tab |
Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 1:24 am |
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| It works for all instruments and regardless of the tuning they happen to be in. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 7:50 am
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True. But... tablature tells you Where to play the notes on your pedal steel guitar. As you know, there are about 15 locations on your PSG to play a given note... with pedals, without pedals, with levers, without levers, open, barred, etc. Where you play those notes is very important because that will determine how smoothly you move to the next note(s), and what kinds of harmonies are available in certain positions.
The ultimate is tab With notes IMHO. Or tab with note symbols to indicate timing.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 8:55 am
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I agree with Doug. Standard notation was invented for instruments such as keyboards and horns, for which there is a one-to-one correspondence between the written note, and the one place to play it on the instrument. The orchestral strings have a small problem because they can play the same note on more than one string. But there are usually only two reasonable choices, and they learn to deal with it.
Steel guitar, especially pedal steel, has so many choices for each written note that standard notation is simply an incomplete way to write music for the instrument. TAB is also incomplete, since there is no time value and phrasing. A combination of standard notation and TAB is complete for steel guitar. Of course, because of the unique setup on each instrument, the TAB may have to be adapted. |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 15 Aug 2007 11:24 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
| Standard notation was invented for instruments such as keyboards and horns, for which there is a one-to-one correspondence between the written note, and the one place to play it on the instrument. |
That's not really correct, is it? Tab was the first way to notate music on any given instrument. All started out with different tabulature systems that showed the way to finger something on whatever instrument the tab was for. Keyboards too, they had a tab system first, before standard music notation.
Standard music notation was invented and developed for all instruments, a system that lets you see the music but not necessarily the way it's played. For keyboards it turns out that it shows the way something is played, pretty much anyway. They do have ways to show fingerings for keyboard as well as far as I know, but for most situations the notation shows that.
I understand that point with tab, especially for an instrument with lots of strings, lots of locations for the same note and on top of that the option to retune the strings on the fly but at the same time it locks someone like me out. All of the music that's been notated for PSG using only tab, I can't read it. I don't play PSG but I'd love to be able to read what you guys play.
BTW, the fact tht a given note has many locations hasn't stopped a lot of people who play regular guitar to learn standard music notation and even become really great sight readers. It shouldn't be impossible on PSG, just more difficult. In the end it's a question of knowing the different positions on your instrument and how they correspond to certain ranges and chord types. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 5:44 am
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| I wouldn't think tab written for a specific instrument would be intended to be used on a different instrument. e.g. in this case tab written for a Pedal Steel Guitar and a specific tuning such as the E9th would not be intended to be used by someone with a Stratocaster. |
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Don Sulesky
From:
Citrus County, FL, Orig. from MA & NH
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 8:48 am
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There is nothing wrong with tab, but if you play from tab all your life you will never progress on your own to expand to the various places that these notes and phrases can be played on the steel.
I think tab with the notes is the best way to expand your knowledge of the steel.
Don't use tab as a crutch, but as a learning tool.
Learn the notes on the neck and you'll be way ahead of the game.
Don |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 11:15 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| I wouldn't think tab written for a specific instrument would be intended to be used on a different instrument. e.g. in this case tab written for a Pedal Steel Guitar and a specific tuning such as the E9th would not be intended to be used by someone with a Stratocaster. |
Or someone like me, playing an electric balalajka 
However, if I also have the notation I can figure out for myself how I can best emulate the sound from the PSG in E9 tuning. With just tab I have no idea. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 11:35 am
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Terje, we are playing semantics, but the truth of your statements about TAB existing before standard notation does not make my statement incorrect. To say that standard notation was invented for "all" instruments ignores the fact that essentially "all" of the instruments at that time had a one-to-one correspondence. And the dominance of standard notation has probably contributed to the dominance of the one-to-one instruments in classical music. The exceptions of course were the strings and the lute/guitar family. With only four strings, the violin (and mandolin) family didn't have a serious problem with standard notation. But I would be interested to hear from string players how the ambiguities are handled in reading standard notation. The lute/guitar family has had a fairly serious problem with the inadequacy of standard notation for their instruments, and that is the reason TAB has persisted as a major communication medium for guitar.
The pedal steel guitar takes the problem to a whole new level. The 12 strings and 24 frets of my S12U comprise 288 notes over a range (4 octaves) that contains 48 notes in standard notation. The 8 pedals and 5 levers, give me around 800 additional notes (each pedal or lever changes all 24 notes on an average of 2.5 strings. So I have around 1,000 notes on the instrument over which to map the 48 notes of standard notation. Even though many of the possibilities are impractical, it is still a daunting task. TAB is simpy an essential part of communicating how to play music on a pedal steel. You can't expect us to use notation that is inadequate for our needs, just so someone who doesn't even play the instrument can read our music.
Nevertheless, TAB alone is also incomplete. Therefore, it would always be best if both forms of notation are presented together. I have some lesson material that is printed that way. Since I can read standard notation (on keyboards and sax), I love to see the standard notation above the TAB.
I also think it might be possible to develop a shorthand that could be printed in standard notation that would cover most of the information needed, much the way fingering is added to standard notation for piano. The main thing you would need is the fret number and a symbol for any pedal or lever used. As with piano fingering, you wouldn't have to have the fret and symbol over each note, just some key chords or notes to guide the player to the right place on the instrument.
However, it is well to recognize that learning to read standard notation along with learning an instrument typically requires many years of training beginning in childhood. Whereas, teens and adults regularly learn guitar and steel in a few years by ear and with TAB. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 2:52 pm
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| Quote: |
| It shouldn't be impossible on PSG, just more difficult. In the end it's a question of knowing the different positions on your instrument and how they correspond to certain ranges and chord types. |
It's possible, but it takes many years to accomplish. First, you memorize the notes on the page, then you memorize every note on your PSG, with and without pedals, with and without knee levers. Then you learn to play the same melody in several DIFFERENT positions... using just the notes. Playing a melody in just one position would not be adequate. You need to connect the positions in various ways. And there are a Lot of possibilities! Basically, you need to master the PSG in order to play by notation only. Then comes the harmony ...so many options. What is the smoothest way to move between 3rds or 6ths or Chords in a given song? The possibilities begin to multiply as the song goes on.
I do think that reading music is important, and I can play from sheet music, but I need a couple of minutes to look it over and decide the Smoothest, best way to play those notes on PSG. Single note lines are easy, but chords and harmonies written in notation require a little more analysis and time to put together on pedal steel guitar.
Bottom line... Tab With the Notes is the way to go! 
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Chuck S. Lettes
From:
Denver, Colorado
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 3:31 pm
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This is an interesting thread. I tend to agree with Doug in that tab gives you a visual representation of how to play a passage. Having the standard notation sure helps with the timing, and of course the lyrics provide the option to sing along. I like having the chords to create various harmonies. For me, tab with the chords and music helps make the learning process a bit quicker.
Chuck |
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John McGlothlin
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 5:07 pm
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| Well I for one can say that I don't know how to read music....I tried but never could learn. Tablature has been a total blessing for me and I'm sure for a lot of others....if I didn't have tab I'd get as much done on steel guitar or dobro and such as a one legged man at a butt kicking LOL. |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 16 Aug 2007 10:04 pm
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It sounds to me like some of you are looking for tab to solve the problem that you would otherwise have to solve yourself. Where and how to play something is a problem that needs to be solved at one point or another, whether by you or the person writing the music.
Since I play an instrument that is like a three stringed violin with regards to how it's tuned I know something about the problems with different positions, although it's not even close to the complicated situation on PSG. Personally I prefer to figure these things out for myself since a fingering has a lot to do with how the phrasing will sound.
I read a lot that's written for piano and I can't play half of it. I have to figure out how to play what I can to make it sound as close to the real deal as I can get and that's the fun part.
Standard music notation is made out to be this complicated thing that's so difficult to learn. The truth of it is that it's easier than the alphabet we're all using to type this debate |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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John McGlothlin
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Posted 17 Aug 2007 6:16 am
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| Seriously now.....tablature has been a great help to me but because of me playing by ear.....I also use trial and error to figure out most of my work....there are 8 pedals and 4 knee levers on my guitar...I just generally search for certain voicings with a combination of string groups and pedals and/or knee levers and when I find what I'm looking for I never forget it. Really the tab helps to mark a point of origin for a certain lick or riff and by knowing where to find your forth and fifth chord the whole thing is made simple. I don't know if I'm making any sense or not but the point I'm trying to make is that tab has been a big help to me it does not do everything for me....nothing takes the place of a good challenge. After all....where is the challenge in having a pedal steel guitar that plays itself. |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 17 Aug 2007 9:11 am
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Terje Larson wrote: |
| I don't play PSG... |
Terje, You do not play pedal steel guitar. ...and you are telling us how do-able it is to play standard notation on a pedal steel guitar?  |
People who play regular guitar will often say that it's impossible to learn standard notation on guitar, or at least very unpractical.
I do understand that the problems faced on guitar are greater on PSG but... you will have to overcome them at one point or another or you will be "painting by numbers" when you play.
Tab is great for showing how something can be played and this is great info if the fingering/position/trick is smart and makes things smoother and easier and if the tab is correct.
Often this is not the case. Just today I saw a students tab version of a rock tune, for regular guitar, and the way it was presented in tab was first of all wrong and secondly highly impractical. In these cases standard notation is better, just becasue it doesn't suggest a stupid fingering.
It is possible to indicate fingerings for regular guitar in standard notation, I bet it's doable for PSG too.
I use tab myself for stuff that's in an open tuning on regular guitar that I know I won't be using much and I just want to learn how to play a certain lick or song. But in those cases I still prefer standard notation and then I'll figure it out on my main instrument instead and do the rest of the work myself. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2007 9:38 am
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| Terje Larson wrote: |
It is possible to indicate fingerings for regular guitar in standard notation, I bet it's doable for PSG too. |
Sure, just write a fret number here and there. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 17 Aug 2007 3:25 pm
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Terje,
I agree that playing by tab Only greatly limits a player, and some tab is not accurate. But it's also true that playing by notes Only will limit a player. Notes & Tab... each gives us 1/2 of the total picture.
In all respect to you, I'm having a hard time listening to advice about pedal steel guitar from someone who does not play pedal steel guitar. It's like me telling a banjo player how he should approach his banjo. I think you should buy a pedal steel guitar and learn to play it in whatever way makes the most sense to you. Let us know how it goes.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Terje Larson
From:
Rinkeby, Spånga, Sweden
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Posted 17 Aug 2007 10:03 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| Notes & Tab... each gives us 1/2 of the total picture. |
I'm not against tab, it has its place and use. However, and this is espeically true for young guitar players who play regular guitar, using only tab is what a lot of people do and they are really shooting themselves in the foot by doing so.
Also, it's my own frustration I suppose. Seeing someone's PSG arrangement in tab only is frustrating because I can't use any of it.
| Quote: |
| In all respect to you, I'm having a hard time listening to advice about pedal steel guitar from someone who does not play pedal steel guitar. It's like me telling a banjo player how he should approach his banjo. |
That's a very good point even though it does hapen in life that we get really great advice from outsiders who know nothing of what we do.
I'm not saying I'm that guy though |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 21 Aug 2007 7:36 am
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Ideally a tab that includes the sheet music is the best overall system so that if one is not already familiar with the song they can learn it by looking at the tablature, and then comparing it with the standard musical notation. Below is an example of that. I will eventually post my entire arrangement of this tune here in the tablature section of the forum when I finish writing it out. By the way, this tab is for the E9 neck.
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 21 Aug 2007 10:31 am
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| No Doug. I do it all with my Microsoft Paint program. I draw everything from the staves to the notes. It is a somewhat primitive, and lengthy procedure as you might imagine but I don't have any other programs that would otherwise do it yet. I have gotten fairly good at doing it though, and it takes me less time to do than someone who is not as experienced with this method. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Aug 2007 10:26 pm
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If you know where the notes of the staff are on your instrument, everything but the fret number is unnecessary. In Shef's example, a hint saying 4fr. above the staff at the beginning, and two hints 6fr. and 4fr. in the fifth bar would tell you all you need to know.
If you wanted to show pedal positions, a single line of hints like 4A...4AB...4... etc. would do the trick.
The tab is only necessary if you can't read music for your instrument. It uses so much space that you would need a professional page turner to play a piece that's more than 30 seconds long! 
I think tab is mostly for beginners and people who can't read music. I often mark up sheet music in pencil with fret numbers and sometimes include pedal hints. The staff tells you what notes to play. The only thing missing is what fret to play them at.
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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