| Author |
Topic: Demonstration on how sampling artists are musicians |
erik
|
Posted 24 Jul 2007 5:51 pm |
|
There was a rant here a while back how DJs and Hip-Hop artists were not musicians. Here would be an example of how a person can manipulate samples and loops live to compose a track. You must watch the whole video to appreciate what he's doing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tA1lZjFzgI8
_________________
-johnson |
|
|
 |
Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
|
Posted 24 Jul 2007 7:02 pm
|
|
| Self indulgent evil. Its not music. Man can NEVER replace God's spirit with computers. Its a waste of time. |
|
|
|
Stephen Gregory
|
Posted 24 Jul 2007 8:06 pm
|
|
| Sorry, I'll take Emmons, Hughey, Franklin, and all the other great Steel Guitarists over that anytime! No contest. |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 24 Jul 2007 10:43 pm
|
|
| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Self indulgent evil. Its not music. Man can NEVER replace God's spirit with computers. Its a waste of time. |
EVIL?? What in the world are you talking about?
Evil is flying a plane into a building.
Evil is beating a child.
Evil is using religion to enslave human beings because of the color of their skin.
And according to people who sounded an awful lot like you, evil was the Beatles, Elvis and Johnny Cash.
EVIL is NOT some teenager using a MIDI controller to trigger drum samples in his bedroom.
Its just music. A beat. A melody. Music. No big deal.
If you dont like it, no biggie, just move on.
I dont like pistachio ice cream, but I wouldnt call it evil, and I wouldnt criticize those who do like it.
Unwad thine panties, please.
Last edited by Joe Butcher on 24 Jul 2007 11:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 24 Jul 2007 11:01 pm
|
|
| Stephen Gregory wrote: |
| Sorry, I'll take Emmons, Hughey, Franklin, and all the other great Steel Guitarists over that anytime! No contest. |
I dont think anyone was comparing it to great steel players. There are other kinds of music out there.
Im not saying this to you persoanlly Stephen, as I dont know you, but sometimes I feel like the steel community is composed largely of cranky old farts who are so desperatley clinging to the past that they wont let anything new in. And I'm not saying ALL steelers, but there is definetly that element.
As far as Paul Franklin goes, I have an interview with him circa '79-80 where he talks about the importance of playing ALL styles of music from rock to country to funk to disco to fusion. Paul even played with the speed metal band Megadeth.
Ive played on several electronic music projects and its fun and challenging.
Lately the steel seems to be getting pushed out of country music. If we as steel players dont adapt and evolve, we'll become extinct. |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 4:44 am
|
|
This is not very creative or musical to me at all.
What would you think if we had a conversation and all I said to you was the same thing over and over and over. That is what these sampling guys do. The same licks sampled and looped over and over ad nauseam.
This is robotic and meaningless and shallow. That explains why a lot of people listen to this junk.
Butt level intellect. |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 6:18 am
|
|
Youre so right Bill. Its not as if country music ever repeats the same thing over and over. Certainly not the beloved I-IV-V progression. That hardly ever gets used.
 |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 7:07 am
|
|
I couldn't watch all the way to the end. A bit too boring for me.
I think this guy (or gal?) is an okay pop arranger. Imagine how this would sound if real musicians were playing it. It wouldn't be half bad. As it stands, though, the performance is very flat, quantized and compressed. It doesn't breathe at all.
Let's not mistake simulations of music for music. This is a simulation - a "demo" of a bland rhythmic piece. Put it on stage with real musicians and some dancers to hold your interest, and it would be entertaining to a young, musically naive audience.
At least it doesn't suffer from too many notes. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Jack Francis
From:
Queen Creek, Arizona, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 8:45 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 9:21 am
|
|
I'm not saying this guy is the end-all of electronic music. Its just some kid with a PC and FL Studio software doing some VERY basic things.
I dont buy the "its a simulation of music" argument. Its got rythmic and melodic elements and I can hear it. How it was arrived at dosent matter to me.
I've noticed many of the play along CDs that you guys use have drum machines and synth bass (both usually very bad sounding since it seems that many steelers here are still living in 1989....cassete tapes anyone? ) Im sure if you were playing along with "Faded Love" and someone came up and said "thats not music" you would surely argue differently.
There are much better things out there that blend electronica with live musicians.
Check out Jamie Liddel, Mouse On Mars or Squarepusher, or even steeler
BJ Cole.
Otherwise, dont ask why there are not more young people interested in steel. |
|
|
|
Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 9:44 am
|
|
Before I have to run to a gig - playing live music on my acoustic un-sampled and non-loopable Weissenborn - I'd just like to add that I'm 100% with Joe on this.
Not that I believe it matters to anyone...
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
|
|
|
Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 10:52 am
|
|
Give the new Beatles release a listen. George Martin's son re-did a bunch of timeless Beatle tunes into an incredibly fresh listen. All by sampling.
And boy, am I in the mood now for some pistacio ice cream! |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 11:18 am
|
|
| Joe Butcher wrote: |
I dont buy the "its a simulation of music" argument. Its got rhythmic and melodic elements and I can hear it. How it was arrived at dosent matter to me.
I've noticed many of the play along CDs that you guys use have drum machines and synth bass (both usually very bad sounding since it seems that many steelers here are still living in 1989....cassete tapes anyone? ) Im sure if you were playing along with "Faded Love" and someone came up and said "thats not music" you would surely argue differently. |
Actually, I wouldn't. That's a controversial topic, for sure, but my position is that synthetic rhythm tracks have no place on a steel guitar CD.
Some very good, well known steel players (like Steinar) disagree with me on this. They're entitled to their opinion.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
erik
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 12:41 pm
|
|
b0b, like in many arrangements most of the action climaxes about 3/4 of the way into the track. Yeah, you have to hang in past the 3:00 mark to see more elements take off. It is more arrangment than musicianship but he still plays the pads. He is building patterns, looping them when he hits the space bar, holding some samples when he hits another key, rotating sound banks when he clicks the mouse, and playing the individual pads when appropriate. Sure it was planned out but he still played it live. Would you tell a professional percussionist or drummer they were not a musician? Also, most sample players tune their samples.
_________________
-johnson |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 1:07 pm
|
|
| Ron Whitfield wrote: |
| And boy, am I in the mood now for some pistacio ice cream! |
Why anyone in the world would want to mix nuts with poor innocent ice cream is beyond me. That goes for cookies too!! If I want nuts, I'll eat nuts!!!
Please make a donation to the Nut Free Dessert Society. Cash only, sent to my address please.
 |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 1:14 pm
|
|
| erik wrote: |
| Sure it was planned out but he still played it live. Would you tell a professional percussionist or drummer they were not a musician? Also, most sample players tune their samples. |
The parts that he played live were okay (except for the crappy sounds), but "looping" is not playing an instrument, IMHO. The beauty of repeating a pattern is that no two phrases are exactly the same. That's what makes repeating patterns an interesting musical device - the subtle changes from one instance to the next. If you don't have those changes, you've removed the live musical content of the pattern.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Mike Neer
From:
NJ
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 2:03 pm
|
|
| Joe Butcher wrote: |
Please make a donation to the Nut Free Dessert Society. |
Are you nuts? What's a dessert without nuts? Hmmm, how about some pecan-less pie...
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
|
|
|
Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 2:58 pm
|
|
You guys are about to drive me nuts.Good thing I don't have enough sense to go crazy.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 4:08 pm
|
|
| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Joe Butcher wrote: |
Please make a donation to the Nut Free Dessert Society. |
Are you nuts? What's a dessert without nuts? Hmmm, how about some pecan-less pie...
|
My good sir, it is my opinion that one should not be forced to eat nuts under the guise of recieveing a delicious treat. I am certain without a doubt that this is the work of a vast conspiracy perpetrated by the Universal Nut Association, as is pecan pie itself. No one in their right minds would base a pie filling on nuts.
Since none of us can agree on the merits of either nuts or electronica, I will gracefully bow out and get back to defending the world from the hostile
nut-ocracy which threatens us at this very minute. |
|
|
|
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 4:29 pm
|
|
Perhaps the person doesn't have a MUSICAL talent to play the Instrument but whoever it is has a technical ability to comprehend how it all works together and fits. A technical mind.
IF you have never worked a complex MIDI programming then I suspect you would not appreciate this at all.
Can we all say CSI Miami together ? There are some incredible musical tracks played on those types of shows and how is one to know if the composer was a MIDI composer or a REAL LIVE player ?
Who cares ?
Engineering minds have to start somewhere..
Video games, cell phones etc.. Engineered music...
Not Evil....
I don't see any EVIL in this whatsoever..quite frankly if more young kids were doing this there would probably be less evil things happening around our little planet.
This sort of programmed music is not really my cup of tea but I would also bet there are a bunch of folks out there that think my song list needs revamping too !
They may not be musicians but perhaps they can be considered artists... |
|
|
|
Ben Elder
From:
La Crescenta, California, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 7:30 pm
|
|
| Turntablism isn't music (it shouldn't be a word)--it's sound effects. For those with a low amusement threshold. |
|
|
|
David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 7:42 pm
|
|
It is possible to make some really cool music with midi and samples.
It is also possible to make something
less preferable than gargling coffee dregs.
Most things are in the lower than middle range
between the two extremes.
But on the other hand it also allows some young musicians
to learn how music is put together, and
some eventually grown out of minimalist pap,
and actually learn to do stuff we might like a bit.
Most of what we do,
in our general age range here in the forum,
bores them even more than this does for most of us.
Different times different socio/musical pablum for the masses.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
Last edited by David L. Donald on 26 Jul 2007 1:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
|
Posted 25 Jul 2007 11:50 pm
|
|
| Ben Elder wrote: |
| Turntablism isn't music (it shouldn't be a word)--it's sound effects. For those with a low amusement threshold. |
Your bitter judgements are very revealing.
First of all, you are saying that someone controlling a record on a turntable isnt music, yet I guess it would be music if they didnt touch the record??
Secondly, this has nothing to do with turntablism.
Third, I happen to have a very high amusement threshold. Dont insult me by telling me that something I like is indicative of my intellect.
What I find really amusing is that for every young generation there is an older generation of cantankerous old farts who claim that the music of the younger generation "isn't music" accompanied by claims that the younger generation are basically musically challenged, blah, blah, blah.
They said it about rock and roll, they said it about jazz. And here we are again.
Most young people I know like everything from hip-hop to rock to pop to country.But you wouldnt know that. You wouldnt bother to take the time to find out what other kinds of music they like. Youd be surprised. I know 21 year olds who listen to music that came out before I was born (1967) as well as modern sounds.
Seems like so many people arent happy unless they have something to look down upon.
What a shame. |
|
|
|
Dave Boothroyd
From:
Staffordshire Moorlands
|
Posted 26 Jul 2007 12:57 am
|
|
He's not bad for a self taught, young musician. I don't think that the beat is very interesting, and it is not what you would expect for the trippy, trancey pads and samples that he's using. But he's done his preparation and practice and pulls it together in real time. I'd guess that he has something like Ableton Live on the PC. The piece does develop and change over time, so yes, he's OK.
If he was auditioning for my Music Production course, I'd say that he has a good starting point there.
Joe is right, he is no Squarepusher- but he has time to learn.
The problem I have with a lot of music of this type, loop based,is it's lack of ambition. It seems to be happy to be "background music" - which is a concept I hate. It takes a lot of work and talent to produce a strong melody this way.
You Pedal players, try to think of how difficult even the Greats would have found things if they had been forced to work with no bar, no pedals and no knee levers- and they would still have had more musical possibilities that the young man with the trigger pads has at his disposal.
Cheers
Dave |
|
|
|
Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
|
Posted 26 Jul 2007 2:23 am
|
|
| Joe Butcher wrote: |
Youre so right Bill. Its not as if country music ever repeats the same thing over and over. Certainly not the beloved I-IV-V progression. That hardly ever gets used.
|
The melodies and words of the songs used over this oft used chord progression are totally different from each other. Surely you are not equating a machine playing the exact same things over and over and over with country music??? Are you, are you, are you, are you, are you, are you.......ooops, I started talking like a sampler! Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me............... |
|
|
|
