A System Of Checkouts

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

A system of checkouts may prove to be worthwhile for the discriminating steel guitarist. Assuming that the fretboard or bridge span is 100% accurate may allow a player to play for indefinite periods of time slightly off pitch. It would be one of many scarcely noticeable points to examine to improve one's total sound.

Ed. for typing error.

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

Cain't do it. No off pitch, just ain't going to happen.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Colby,

The audible pitch differentiations, or discrepancies should be discernable at the 12th and 24th frets. That may very well be something to check before purchasing a used or new steel guitar. There is a world of minute differences in pitches heard in string vibrations, depending on a particular gauge and sustain.

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

On a steel guitar, the fretboard only gets you in the general vicinity of the note. Most fret markers are about 3/32" to 1/8" wide, so where do you put the bar, directly in the center? How do you know when its in the center? Most bars have a 7/16" radius, and due to your line of sight you can be a good bit off either way, and it gets worse as you go up the fretboard. A steel is like a fiddle or any other non fretted string instrument, you have to play by ear unless you are playing open strings.

I've heard that Bobbe Seymour was seen playing a steel at least once without a fretboard. How did he know where to put the bar? By ear. If a player is playing off pitch, you can't really blame the guitar, its the players ear.

Just my opinion.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

There are different theories about this. The last few years I've made some changes to suit my "eyes to ears" coordination.

I like many, tuned the guitar one to two hertz sharp on the tuner causing me to have to play with the bar behind the fret. Today what I want to know is that when the center of the bar is over the center of the fret marker it is dead on.

Of course we have to deal with what cabinet drop each individual instrument has. We do the best we can.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Randy,

I'm fascinated by a method of locating "dead center" at the 12th fret. It may be elementary for some, still I'm not sure. If by chance you haven't tried honing in on the precise 12th fret positioning, try picking the bottom string lightly, while holding the bar a little flat, but just behind the 12th fret. Pick the string lightly and roll the bar over the 12th fret. You should hear an increased volume as the bar rolls over the correct position. It matters not if you roll from below or above the 12th fret, an appreciable volume increase should be detected.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Darvin,

Thanks for the interesting trivia. I want to mention that the width of the frets allow for visual acuity. As you've noted, we depend on a well developed sense of hearing to make possible split second adjustments to establish proper pitch. I'm amused by the antics of Bobbe Seymour. Bobbe may very well be the Harry Houdini of steel players. Consider a tiny flaw or blemish beneath the fretboard that would represent a position. Pitch memory is very difficult without the benefit of guidance.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Randy,

I tune to an (A) note located at the 5th and 10th strings of a D9th tuning. A large piano fork vibrates the (A) note and the "waves" stop moving when the pitch is "right on". From there the exercise of tuning by ear is important to detect small differences when pedals and knee levers are actuated. As for playing behind the fret, I'm inclined to attribute the tendency to do so, may have developed from playing a Spanish guitar. Whatever it takes, I'm thinking that "right on" dead center over the frets is the "region" of exactness. Harmonious consistencies can be attributed to the work of the ears to detect dissonance. My experience with the 9th tunings on the steel finds the 6th string to be the most troublesome. Located centrally in the chordal phrasings, it can dampen the harmonious effects of major triads. The second string lower can be touchy, and influence musical expression if it's not "right on". I've seen advanced players sit down and immediately go for the tuning keys of another advanced player's steel. Now that can be an interesting sight to behold.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Interesting Bill, in the normal course of my playing I OFTEN pick arpeggios BEHIND the bar at the 12th 7th and 5th frets, indeed it DOES give you a better sense of where the bar SHOULD be..
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Steelies do it without fretting

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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Unless you tune to equal temperament, the position of the bar as it relates to the visual fret guide will vary by pedal position.

Suppose that you tune as Mr. Newman suggests: roots and fifths sharp, thirds and sixths flat. They balance perfectly at at the fret marks in "no pedals" position. Beautiful!

When you engage A+F, the notes that had been thirds and sixths become roots and fifths, and the new third (on the F lever) is doubly flat. In this, the most extreme example on the E9th neck, the proper bar position for playing in tune may be as much as 1/6 of a fret above the fret guide.

A pedal steel guitarist who relies on his eyes for pitch will invariably play out of tune.
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Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

b0b,

Some notions seem rather bizarre while taking us deeper into the tuning quandary. The drop off of the 6th string when the E-F knee is actuated creates discord in tonality that disrupts the 6,8,10 triad. Improper adjustments make proper tuning just something to wish for. Thanks for relating and sharing information that will help to resolve some of the problems associated with the pitch variances.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

basilh,

I can't recall who had written about the HYSTERESIS associated with problem steel guitars. It's true that the manufacturers have gone overboard in an all-out effort to correct by mechanical measures, the problems of hysteresis. The efforts have reduced many of the earlier ham and egg constructions of the past. Still lagging in development, is the instability of properly tuned instruments. It's unlikely that a method of first class snooping would be allowed to make important determinations independent of hearsay. Flimsy mechanisms could be contributing to hysteresis; among other things.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Cont..

I think that I've caught on to how the vast majority of steel guitarists are opting for the soft touch. That is, quit quibbling about trivial things that relate to the steel guitar, seems to be the popular consensus. After all, even if the shoe fits, you need not wear it, according to my interpretations. Put downs I've noted are given a wide berth in preference to something similar to pussyfooting around. "If you can't beat them, join them", didn't just "crop" up without good reasoning. I can't help admiring the man who once said, "When they get too tough for everyone else, I don't run from them, I run straight at them." Skeptics are the scourges who block accomplishments and progessiveness by working their ways to hinder ingenuity. This I know!!

George McLellan · From: Duluth, MN USA

The first time I heard of hysteresis was from Bill Rudolph, the builder of Williams Steel Guitars. His design of the changer for the strings to attach has gone a long way to eleminate it. Also keyless tuners cut it down a lot. Another problem was too sharp of an angle would effect the way a string would return to pitch. I don't have the knowlege to explain it in technical terms, but if you talk to Bill he sure will!

Regards,
Geo

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Bill Rudolph of Williams Guitars fame is a mechanical genius. You folks should check out his crossover mechanism some time. It's absolutely brilliant.

Hysteresis on my Williams is below the audible threshold, only measurable on a very good electronic tuner.
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Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Thanks bob, and George for the confidence placed in the Williams Guitars. I've never had the pleasure of speaking with Bill Rudolph. Hysteresis would be a great subject to delve into.

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

George,

Before trailing off on a wild goose chase looking for reasons for pinning blame on the problematic detuning of steel guitars, may I suggest a possible explanation? I would point very accusingly at an issue called temperature change. By noting how quickly the temperature dropped from 82 degrees in an upstairs room, to 72 degrees in just a few minutes, once the air conditioner was turned on, caused mild consternation. What If the strings of the steel guitar are as sensitive to temperature changes, by contracting and expanding with the slightest changes? It makes sense considering the unstable environmental inconsistencies in any given situation. In other words, it may be found that the strings are more sensitive to temperature changes than the thermometer. Frustration can block resolve through trial and error methodologies. The solution may very well be more profound in mechanical nature. Considering the immediate pitch changes of a rubbed plain string, the "theory" may be worthy of some thought.

George McLellan · From: Duluth, MN USA

Bill, no wild geese in my statement Laughing

. I don't have the technical explainations to go into depth about strings. Where the string goes over the roller nut, if the angle is too severe on the key head end, that can add to the problem of the string returning properly.

Temps - UBETCHA, I made the mistake of setting up by a widow in Winnipeg once. When the sun came pouring through later in the afternoon, the aluminum necks did some fancy dancing and staying in tune was out of the question. The same goes for fans, AC's and door drafts.

A fellow Forumite said something in another thread and I agree with him 110% "tune your guitar, let it sit a minute or so. Now run your hand up and down the strings and then check your tuning with a meter. It will detune a smidget".

Some guitars are better some worse for staying in tune because of hysteresis. b0b said, and the same goes for me, hysteresis if any, in my Willy is below anything I can hear.

Geo

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

George,

While reading your response, I was reminded of some of drafty conditions that I walked into as I went about accepting bookings with local bands. One gig in a well known club here in Pittsfield provided me with air conditioning that wasn't needed above my steel. The staging area cooled to the likeness of refrigeration. Either the management or a disgruntled "patron" instigated the agony of trying to keep warm and play with stiffened fingers. I attributed the cause of a hard cold to that experience. Maintenance of those A.C. units is a must to provide the intended health benefits. When the band set up their equipment on a hay wagon outdoors, it was 29 degrees, the last day of August, here in Berkshire County. My fingers rebelled by refusing to bend. Of course, the band reasoned that uptempo selections would warm up the old horse drawn wagon, leaving me with some difficult choices. There is little doubt in my mind that others have had "little" surprises throughout their careers.

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