MSA Repair Advice ~ Frozen Part

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

I'm working on a 1976 MSA Classic. After I get done I'll post some before and after pics. But in the meantime... As I was taking off the changer, one of the screws broke off that goes into one of the aluminum blocks that hold the end of the changer axle. It's TIGHT. Any advice on how to get that out of there without ruining the aluminum? Heat? Solvent? Advice greatly appreciated!

p.s. A prior post from Jim Sliff led me to try Naphtha for cleaning parts. Worked great! And my wedding ring is really, really shiny too.... Maybe gloves for the rest of the work think? Thanks Jim!

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Sounds like you need a screw extractor. Standard hardware store item. Basically a reverse threaded drill bit. Try to center punch the embedded screw, then start the extractor slowly. Once it gets a good bite, it ought to drive the screw right on out. The selected bit should be smaller than the screw shaft you are trying to remove. I do this with a manual T-handle.
My experiences with this are all self-taught, self-discovered so if there is an expert who has a 'right' way to do this, I'm all ears.

AS to naphtha, I am elbow deep in the stuff all day, every day at work. Pretty much as benign a petroleum distillate as there is. If there are any ill effects, I'm not aware of any. This head growing out of my left shoulder agrees.

richard burton · From: Britain

If there's enough thread sticking out to get some vice-grips on, you could apply some gentle heat.
The aluminium will expand more than the steel screw, making removal easy.

If there's nothing sticking out, you'll have to try some 'Easy-Outs', as per Jon's suggestion, along with some heat.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I agree with Jon, also. But the "Easy-Outs" I've seen require you to drill a starter hole in the broken screw (smaller than the original screw), then apply the "Easy-Out"...then again, I'm not a mechanic. Confused

_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Yes Mike--it's been a while and my brain forgot. Darned naptha.
Drilling that hole gives the extractor the traction to bite into the screw remnant.

Walter Killam · From: Nebraska, USA

Neil,

Just as a suggestion, drilling the hole in the screw to be extracted can be a little tricky (don't even consider trying to drill it freehand, use a drill press), if this is your first extraction, you may want to consider taking the piece to a machine shop or motorcycle shop (I've had to do most of my extractions on motorcycles) & pay to have it done, observe if you can.

It's not rocket science, but like so many other mechanical manuvers, it's better to start on materials that are't precious or difficult to replace. If the extraction doesn't go well, you may be able helicoil the stripped hole at your local machine shop.

Good Luck!

Harvey Richman · From: Georgia, USA

Hi Neil, I've had the changer off of my classic so I'll add my two cents worth. It's probably not as tight as you think as the source of the tesnion that kept if from turning (the screw head) is now gone. The exception would be unless it was so tight that the threads deformed or if there was significant oxidation (i.e., rust). First, I would let it soak in wd40 while you are contemplating your approach. I agree with Jon and Mike. A screw extractor is the surest and safest way to go. However, you'll probably need to go to a specialty supply house on the web as you're probably going to need a very small size, not available at your average hardware or auto store. I had a time finding drill bits smaller than 1/16. Try smallparts.com. If they don't have what you need, maybe they can point you in the right direction. AND from sad experience, I can almost guarantee that without a quality drill press, the drill bit will wander away from the center of the screw in favor of the softer surrounding aluminum.

There is one other shortcut I can think of. If there is a bit of the screw sticking out (not flush) you could try to cut a slot in it with a file or very fine saw blade. I've slotted broken off screws with a Dremel wheel cutter (protect those eyes if you try that). I wish they made those cutoff wheels in smaller diameters. It breaks my heart when one starts to get small (like I usually want it) and then it breaks. Good luck.

Harvey

Harvey Richman · From: Georgia, USA

Walter's post makes a good point too. Unless you want the experience and enjoy the challenge, finding someone with the right tools and experience, could be cheaper, quicker, and pose less risk of damaging the part.
Regards
Harvey

Bent Romnes · From: London,Ontario, Canada

Neil,
If the easy-out fails, as a last resort, try to drill an oversize hole (1/64" or 1/32") in the existing hole.
Use a drill press!! Then tap the new hole with the appropriate sized tap, buy the correct bolt for the oversize hole and you're off to the races. If you want to match things up, drill and tap out the other hole to fit the new size.
Bent

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Unless you have some machining experience, you could make matters far worse by trying to do it yourself. Take it to a machine shop, and they can drill or EDM it out.

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

Thanks for all the advice. Just the head of the screw twisted off. Then I tried to gently persuade it out again with a vise grips on the stub. I twisted it off a second time... The screw still has a 1/4 inch sticking out of the block. Think I'll try the soak in WD-40 and see if that will loosen it up some. If not, off to the local machine shop. I'm pretty handy with this stuff but I really don't want to ruin this part. Thanks folks.

p.s. Checked today an no extra limbs/body parts have developed. It only looks like I have 6 fingers on each hand. I counted. Twice...

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

You can try heating up the aluminum "pillow block" around the screw with a torch (available at any hardware store)- put the good end of the pillow block in a vise) for a few minutes and then carefully (as in- don't burn yourself on the hot aluminum) re-try to remove the screw by grabbing the stub.

Harvey Richman · From: Georgia, USA

I take back what I said, that's tight. One more idea. If you have that much screw left and can clean up the ends of the threads, you can put two nuts on there (10/32 I think) and tighten them against each other (maybe a lock washer in between if you have room). Then you can use a wrench on the bottom one instead of a vise grip (the closer to the block the better). Maybe with some extended WD soaking, heating (as Jim suggested) and sharp taps vs. steady hard pressure, maybe..................

I share your frustration. I think many of us have been there.

Regards
Harvey

Aaron Harms · From: Missouri, USA

...my father was killed by a 6 fingered man. You killed my father, prepare to die.

Sorry, bro, that was too good of a set up not to respond. Why not just buy parts that you don't have to fix? Very Happy

You may now continue using the thread for good, rather than evil.

A

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

You keep saying that word but I am not so sure you know what it means....

Aaron, I think what you meant is "Why don't you buy steels you don't have to fix?" What'd be the fun? The part that is a problem can't be bought as far I know. Have to have a new one made....

Have not had time to try the extraction yet. I'm going to let it soak for a day or so and then give it a shot. We'll see....

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

The problem with WD40 is that when it evaporates it leaves a residue- you might consider using a different penetrating oil~

Tracy Sheehan · From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA

Here is a little trick i learned from an old German machinist.To heat a small area take a potato and cut it so only the area you want to heat is exposed.The potato and water will prevent over heating of the part you cover.Hope i explained this correctly.Tracy

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Glad to hear the naphtha worked - it's really good for this use and actually one of the safer petroleum distillates - well, unless you drink the stuff like two-headed Jon! Razz

As far as the stuck screw - first, I'll chime in with Jim and say without any hesitation that WD40 should not go near a musical instrument, ever. Use it for rusty gate hinges, garage door parts, and that's about it. It's a dirty solvent and leaves all kinds of sticky residue - it will cause more harm than good on ANY guitar part.

I would first try the heat method - put a soldering iron (or in this case, even a soldering gun, which should normally never go near musical equipment - too hot and can screw up magnetic pickups) on the screw (which will direct heat outwards evenly to the aluminum) for two minutes, then use whatever flat screwdriver will touch the sheared top and try to get enough pressure to turn it. If the parts have enough of a difference in heat coefficient it may just work, and it's a lot safer than a torch. But - it's probably got a 25% chance of working.

Easy-outs should only be used freehand if you are working on a large screw. With small ones, you have to use a drill press or you'll drill the pilot hole wrong, guaranteed. If you don't have one, cart it off to a local machine shop and if they are nice it should be a $10 job and take 5 minutes. I think that will be your final solution.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

We have a winner. After fussing with this a bit more (and being unsuccessful....), I took it to a machine shop. They drilled it out for $12.50. Worth every penny. The threads inside the part were still good to go after the removal of the broken bolt and this part is now back on the steel. Thanks all for your helpful comments! N.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

jim flynn · From: Salado,Texas

Neil, if you cant get it done, I'll send a new one, no charge, I must have 100 of them, they just need buffing.
Jim, Lone Star Steel Guitar

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

That's generous of you, Jim. Kudos to you.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Donny - You said the magic word!!! EDM!!! It's not cheap, but 'we in the trade' have had to do this to salvage an otherwise fine mold insert or what have you dozens of times. EDM is the real way to go. BTW that stands for 'Electrical Discharge Machining'. Several manufacturers over the years have built crude 'tap-burners' that use soluable oil as a dielectric fluid without the benefit of a surrounding tank expressly for this purpose. They can 'burn' out a tap or a screw for about 10 bucks. DON'T mess with it if you don't have a milling machine to keep the drill/end mill in alignment. It's cheaper to pay them to remove it than it is to buy all the junk to try and remove it yourself. Been in the trade 45 years next month. . .trust me on this!!!
PRR

Neil Harms · From: Ionia, Missouri, USA

Thanks Jim for the kind offer. I think I'm all set though. See my other MSA thread for the "after" pics. N.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic