Tone, Williams and Carter and Pick-ups (new guy long ?)

Whit Krogh · From: Colorado

I am new to pedal steel guitar and the forum. I have been reading a lot on the forum about issues concerning tone. I recently played a Williams guitar and was very impressed with the playability, feel and the tone of the highs. My concern is the lows and mids. Especially the lows because I am going to get a 12 string. I spoke to Bill Rudolph at Williams Guitar an he told me that the birds eye body and aluminum neck that are on the guitar that I played could be curly maple and achieve a less “hard” sound and that the bass could be turned up or fattened a notch by using a true tone pick up that is wound to 18.5. I love the way the guitar looks, feels and plays. I have noticed that there are number Williams owners on the forum and I have noticed that some have complained about a thinness of tone with the original pick up, and that they were going to change the pick-up out. I wonder if anyone can share a successful or unsuccessful outcome with this type of situation. I also like the bass of Carter and Fessenden but would like a lacquer guitar. Sound does, however, come first. What kind of guitar and pick-up does Buddy Emmons use on Steel Guitar Jazz? That guitar has bass and funky highs. Robert Randolph has a guitar with 2 pick-ups that is featured on the Fessenden web site. Is 2 pick-ups a good idea? I have read that the Bill Lawrence pick-up is set further from the strings than a True Tone maybe I would put the 18.5 true tone at the changer and a Bill Lawrence away from the bridge or changer. Can I use 2 Stratocaster pick-ups because those are set much further from the strings? javascript:emoticon(' Idea

')javascript:emoticon(' Rolling Eyes

') Also about the True Tone pick-ups, I understand I can get a switch that sets the impedance to two different settings fatter for blues and thinner for classic country does any one have experience with this. Can I set the impedance higher than 18.5? If I can only have one pick-up I guess it would be a single coil. What is the fattest, fullest, bassest single coil pick-up that can still achieve a clean tone? Would a tone knob help, if so what kind? I am looking for a full, rounded and versatile sound, from old country to modern blues with distortion. I apologize if this is too long a question. I am not sure how to put it any more simply. I appreciate any input anyone has. Idea

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I play a Williams D-12 keyless. I didn't try Bill's own pickups because I knew what I wanted when I ordered the guitar. I have a Bill Lawrence 712 on the front neck, with a tone control to back off the highs, and a George L's 12-1 on the back.

Both necks sound very rich and full to my ears. The only problem is that the 712 is louder than the 12-1 so I have to back it further away from the strings. I've found a good balance now, but it took a few gigs worth of experimenting. You never know how something is really going to sound until you take it on a gig.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Jerry Malvern · From: Menifee, California, USA

To answer your question, "Can the pickup be wound higher than 18.5 " yes. I have a true-tone with a tap wound 20k and 12k. Jerry Wallace will make you a pickup custom ordered to your spec's and they sound good too.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

As a new player the above information looks good and is interesting. That'll be a lot of money to spend on something to get started on. You can easily take about half of the cost and get a nice used 12 stringer and have it set up anyway you like. Williams, Carter and Fessenden's are all good guitars. Just my .02 here since we'd already talked about the Fessy's. Good luck on your choice and welcome to our little world of PSG!

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Whit,
My advice to new guys about this stuff is don't worry about it for now. The tone of a pedalsteel has everything to do your ability to play and very little to do with gear. I make pickups for pedalsteels and they are only a small part of how to get a good tone. If you do not know how to control your mids,highs and lows with your hands no pickups, amps or gizmos will help much. The steels you are looking at are all fine. Keep it simple. Take the advice of the builder and get a steel and start practicing. Believe me, just about all of us started out wanting to sound like Buddy Emmons. There is nothing that can be bought to do that.

I would spend some time with Buddy Charleton over at Billy Cooper's shop in Orange Va. He can show you how to get a good sound out of a steel !
_________________
Bob

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I have to agree with Bob Hoffnar on this. My first real pedal steel was a Sho-Bud 6139 - a fine sounding instrument by any standard, with the classic split-coil pickup. I had an awesome Fender Pro Reverb amp. I'm sure that if I were to play that same rig I would be blown away by the tone, but at the time I thought it was all wrong. I put a graphic EQ between my volume pedal and the amp to try to "fix" it. I was never happy with the "tone".

I'm sure that there is nothing wrong with Bill's stock single coil pickups. I prefer humbuckers and I knew the 712 and 12-1 very well from hotswapping them on my Sierra. That's why I didn't get the stock pickups.

The tone differences between pickups is very subtle compared the the tone differences you can make with your hands. The angle of attack, position of the right hand, strength of finger motion and quality of blocking are the largest components of steel guitar tone.

It's a lot of work to change pickups on most guitars. I think that many people over-state the quality of a pickup change because of the equity they have invested in it. Just my opinion.

With my Sierra, I can change pickups between songs or even within a song for a solo if I want. It takes about 5 seconds. The differences from one end of the pickup spectrum to the other are subtle, though. Sometimes I get lazy in the middle of a gig and stop changing pickups. Nobody notices, and my tone does not suffer. My hands adapt.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Bobby Snell · From: Austin, Texas

I've had a Williams with the original single-coil pup's for over a decade. Over that time, I've changed (evolved?) tones and sounds, using signal processors and just the controls on amps. These pup's are wound at about 18K I believe. Anyway, they are good, versatile pickups that work for what I'm trying to do.

Bill's guitars are very smooth and accurate mechanically, and you can't go wrong there. IMHO, that would be very helpful to a student, as the quest for tone is (as noted by others above in the thread) dependent on playing time more than equipment.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Scott Swartz · From: St. Louis, MO

Waht kind of amp/speaker are you using? That is an important consideration.

The mechanics of all 3 guitars you mention are excellent, and if you are starting that is very important. You don't want the guitar fighting you with respect to playing in tune.

I have a Carter and a Williams, and my perception is the Carter is a brighter twangier tone and the Williams is a fat smooth type of tone. Referenced to the 6 string guitar world, Carter more like a telecaster, Williams more like a Les Paul.

You can hear my two guitars here

http://www.linemenmusic.com/music_07.html

first track Carter, second Williams

Same recording setup and amp, same pickup (BL 610) on both guitars
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

I have a Williams (17K Truetone)that sees a lot of gig time. It hangs, tone wise, with my Sho~Bud and Emmons guitars. As Bob and b0b pointed out, the pickup does not make or break a guitar. I think that it is really important that the guitar "fits" you.... that it is comfortable to play. Too many players start out with guitars that are too low, too high, knee levers located improperly... etc. A guitar that does not fit can make it difficult to develop good technique.... and good technique is essential to good tone.

Find a guitar that you like to play.... the tone will come.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

The kind of amp you play through makes a huge difference. Tone settings also. Pros know how to pull good tone from mediocre rigs. You are over complicating the tone thing as a new player. There is nothing wrong with any of the guitars you described. Go to Buddy Charlton. He will answer all your questions and help you get the tone that you want. You will spend alot of money if you try and do it by yourself.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

FYI,,, I have a Williams D-10, Keyless. The back pickup is a Williams... Great sound. The front neck has a new Jerry Wallace P/U.... Great sound.

Bill Rudolph uses Jerry Wallace Pickups now as he saves a lot of time, no longer winding his own. Both pickups are great.

My advice is to re adjust your amp and practice, practice, practice. Tone is in your hands, not your pickup. JMO

Tim Bridges · From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

Everything stated above is 100% accurate. I would like to add that the ph's impedance is a very critical part of the equation. I settled on TT's wound at 20.5 kohms on the E9th and 21.5 kohms wound on the C6th. I almost wished that I had gone just a little higher. If the pu's are wound to light, they will have more pronounced highs, then mids and farely empty on the bottom. Then you need to consider HB's vs. SC pu's. I prefer single coils. The amp can do alot, but it has its limitations. I use a Mesa Boogie Studio Preamp through a Mosvalve 500 into two 15" JBL E-130 cabs. It has all the EQ you could ever want. However, until I put these pu's in, I did not get the "sound/tone" I was seeking.

What ultimately comes out of the amp originates in the hands. After the, hands, the right gear combination will refine what you want to hear. It has taken me 4 steels and a lost count on pu's & amps. BUT, I haven't looked for any new gear for several months, like my sound and hope to get the "hands" to catch up with the gear.

Welcome to the quest!!! Cool

Whit Krogh · From: Colorado

Thanks for all the input. I have now have a better plan for how i will proceed.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: