Silverface Twin Reverb

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

I can buy a nice clean '70's, master volume Twin for almost exactly the same price as a new Steel King. In a recent thread Rick Alexander, for whose opinions I have considerable respect, stated that he felt the twin beat out both the Steel King and the NV-112 in side by side taste tests. I can't begin to imagine that nobody else on this forum has an opinion about that question, and I'm waiting to hear it. Thanks.

KP

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

As far as tone goes, it's strictly personal preference. I prefer Twin Reverbs, myself, but YMMV. I have both a Dual Showman Reverb ('69 non-master, same chassis as Twin Reverb) and an ultralinear '78 Twin Reverb. The typical ultralinear has more clean power, but many players - especially guitarists - typically prefer the earlier version.

Remember also that the tubes, speakers, filter capacitors, and general upkeep matter a lot with a Twin Reverb. But conversely, one can often improve a Twin Reverb by appropriate choice of tubes, speakers, and general upkeep. I would listen with my ears and pay less attention to what others think about the amp "in general".

On the subject of "typical dollar value" - if it's clean and original, I think an early-mid 70s Master-Volume Twin Reverb - 100 watts - is generally worth more than a Steel King. The later ultralinear 135-watt Twin Reverb is generally worth less than the earlier version, but still probably worth as much or more than a Steel King. The details matter as far as worth is concerned. In general, old Fender tube amps have been escalating in price for a couple of decades now. Maybe all this seems irrelevant, but I think it's easier to get ones money out of an appropriately priced Twin Reverb than a new steel amp if one doesn't like it.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Dave, thanks for your input, most of it reflects what I've been thinking, and all of it seems relevant to me.
A specific question: do you worry pumping bass-like frequencies from the bottom end of a C6 neck into 12" speakers?

KP

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

It depends on the speakers - if they are rated for the right power and are speakers that are tight enough to handle solid low-end at decent volume, it would be no problem (I think of the Weber California Series as an example). SOME of the Fender-labeled CTS ceramic-magnet speakers will handle it, some won't.

But before that, if you want to crank out low-end C6 stuff through a tube amp, you HAVE to make sure it's been serviced properly AND is set up for steel playing. If it's never had the filter and bias caps replaced it's WAY overdue (and your lows would fart out like crazy); you likely want to replace the v2 tube (the second preamp tube - it's the main one for the vibrato channel) with a lower-gain tube like a 5751; you need power tubes that are capable of a clean, tight tone like Sylvanias, RCA's, Philips STR387's or similar NOS U.S. tubes (most of the stuff made today is designed for guitar players that want some breakup - the EH/Sovtek 6L6's and 5881's being examples.)...and then those tubes need to be biased a bit on the cold side for clean headroom - but not so cold that the tube amp warmth is obliterated. It's a balancing act that a good guitar amp tech who will listen to you can do.

But just buying a Twin and playing isn't how it works, unfortunately. The good thing is, as David mentioned, in the long run you'll make money off that amp if you sell it. It will continue to increase in value.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Chris LeDrew · From: Canada

I sold mine to pay for the Chiropractor. Smile

I had a '71 Twin for a while last year, and it sounded pretty good but lacked the clarity of my Session 400. Like Jim said, it probably needed some attention under the hood. It was great for guitar, but in the steel department it didn't live up to the hype. It was 85 pounds, which was another reason for me selling it. I actually had trouble getting it around, and I don't mind heavy gear. That was a beast!!
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com

Al Sato · From: Texas Hill Country

You can get more robust speakers for a Twin. You can also re-do the baffle (although it's harder for a SF; you might be better off buying a new cab) for a 15" speaker. Both the amp and the new cab are salable items if you don't like them.

The 12" (or 15") Jensen Neos might work well for you. Weber is coming out with some JBL clones that look really interesting. He is apparently using neodymium magnets so they are about as heavy as a typical 12" or 15" speaker. I've been studying this end of the market because I'm having a 1x15 cab built. Of course, I'm also looking at the D130F.

Al
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So many stringed instruments, so little time...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I wouldn't use a D130F in a 100-watt amp. Numbers fluctuate, but when new they were rated for 35-60 watts with 50 watts being the nominal" rating (twice the power of the original D130, which was 25 watts). Nevertheless they found their way into 100-watt applications somehow - with a lot of blown ones over the years. An older one would lose 1/3 or so of its power handling as well. I'd stick with the new Weber - or personally, the California Series works great for me. It's a good clean speaker with higher power handling and less harsh top end than a JBL.

The "F" was also sort of an accident, there because Fender was the high-volume buyer. It was simply a redesign of the original D130 and that was going to still be the name, with the "F" being tagged on by someone at JBL.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

David Doggett · Posted 14 Jun 2007 9:10 pm

Ken you started by discussing the equivalent price. To be completely fair, you have to figure in the cost of getting the Twin serviced, which can be $200 or more, depending on what has to be done, and whether you get expensive NOS tubes. There is at least one currently made 6L6GC that is rated for "hardness," meaning clean playing (I forget the brand). I don't think the power tube choice is so critical for steel as 6-stringers make it out to be. You are unlikely to be driving them to their max, where their characteristics strongly affect tone. The stock 12" speakers will be fine - I've played a uni through them at rock club volume. But a 15" speaker will give a more awesome and more steel-like tone. If you want a 15, I strongly recommend putting the chassis in a head cab and using one or two separate speaker cabs. Of course now you have to figure the costs of a head cab, speaker(s) and speaker cabs. But, the Twin can be resold for the same or higher price for sure. Any new amp will loose considerable value the minute you walk out of the store.

As for tone, it is definitely a matter of personal taste. But I've tried various solid-state and tube amps, and for pedal steel I always come back to the silver-face Twin family (Twin, Dual Showman, Vibrosonic). There is simply nothing like that Fender clean tube sound for steel. The louder you play them, the better they sound; and there is just no solid-state amp that can come close. The early 100w non-master volume Twins, master-volume ones, 135w ones - they're all good for steel. The differences 6-stringers quibble about are mostly meaningless for steel. I actually prefer the 135 watt ultralinear ones, because of the additional clean headroom; and I also love the Super Twin Reverb. The more recent pc-board Vibrasonic Custom, red knob Twin, reissues, and Custom 15 are better than any solid-state amp, but for me are a cut below the classic silver-face Fenders, both in tone and servicability.

If you love that clean tube tone as the absolute best, then the servicing, weight, and cabinet swapping problems are easily worth the effort. Those powerful, clean-playing Fender tube amps and pedal steel are a match made in heaven. There may never be anything else like them; and if anybody makes something as good today, it will cost twice as much as vintage ones are going for now. The best you can say about solid-state steel amps is that they are trouble free, a little lighter weight, and cheaper. But convenience is convenience, and tone is tone. Take your pick.

Larry Robinson · From: Peachtree City, Georgia, USA

The power rating of the D130F is 100W, as stated on the JBL web site: www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/f-series.htm. The "F" designation is NOT for Fender according to what I've read on the JBL web site. The F series was a musical instrument series development. The D130 speaker was only rated at 25/30 watts where the D130F was rated at 100W under defined conditions. You can blow any speaker if you pump enough bass and distortion into it. John Hughey uses D130F speakers exclusively. He told me he has never blown a D130F.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Thanks for the kind words, Ken.

Darryl Logue · From: Raytown, Missouri, USA

Gentlemen, I recently used a 73 Twin completly rebuilt with NOS sylvania 6L6's E.V. SRO speakers. The tech.said he touched every solder joint.The volume was on 3and1/2 and it is a loud band. Wonderful tone no breakup. If you turn it to 10 it would rattle the back panels.It is also the heaviest twin I ever tried to move. Sat. Pat Irvin is bringing a reissue bassman to Harry's Country Club for the steel players I'll report on that later.
See Ya.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Well, Andy just left - he brought the other Twin Reverb, tweaked to perfection:

More clean tube headroom than I'll ever need . .

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Check what one of the JBL designers says on another forum about power handling and the D130F...and the creative way they determined the ratings. Also the "F" designation coming after the design. There are also several other sites where Harvey Gerst talks about the D130F history - it's pretty entertaining how "non-scientific" most of the marketing stuff actually was.

FWIW the short version of the "F" - the D130, a 25-watt speaker, was being redesigned for musical instrument amps. Fender happened to be the largest producer and largest JBL customer for those types of speakers. So when Harvey redesigned it, he stuck the "F" on the end for Fender...although Fender had no input into the design. Neither did Dick Dale, for that matter - although he'll sure as heck tell you he did.

http://www.harpamps.com/micKspeakers/D130F-History.html

The old JBL lit from the 70's is well-known for providing reconers with pretty good business! Nobody reads the "fine print" nor looks closely at test data - and the "100 watts" they advertised was one of those wonderful "marketing power" statements - kind of like the "100 watt" Twin reverb that is pushing it at 85. Jbls' spec sheets note "continuous power" as 3db greater than RMS (which is normally what folks use for power ratings and comparisons). That puts the D130F at 50 watts RMS.

Which is not to say it can't handle more. But in comparison to other "100 watt" speakers - it ain't.

Winking

_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

I like the Fender Twin for my S-10 but I like my Session 400 with the 15' JBL D130 for the C6 stuff with my D-10 just because the low C sounds better to me with a 15. I think Mr. Nashville (LDG) cut a lot of records using a Fender Twin (I could be wrong and Ricky Davis would know for sure) but having a Fender Twin would be a plus to own in the collection, I just wouldn't have it as my only (steel) guitar amp. I haven't tried a Fender Steel King but I would like to.

Darvin Willhoite · From: Roxton, Tx. USA

I think the best steel sound I ever got was with my old '75 White Emmons P/P (that I let get away), and a Fender Twin, with a DD5 for a little delay. My Twin was one of the first silver face models, but was returned to blackface specs, complete with black face LOL. These are great sounding amps, but way too heavy to move around, so mine stays in my studio, and gets turned on only about once a year.

Just happen to have pics.

_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

Darvin, that amp looks beautiful!
Too bad Twins get heavier with age . .

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Darvin. Love the color of the Tolex, but it clashes with the grill cloth. Winking

Try the gold or maybe the burgandy.

Rick Alexander · From: Florida, USA, R.I.P.

I had a couple of Music Man HD212s recovered in blonde tolex, and we used the oxblood grillcloth. It looks real nice:

We were thinking about doing the Twins that way too, as they both had to be recovered. But we decided to go with traditional black and silver . .

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Just an update, and a thank you for all the input. Bought a pretty darned clean Silver Face Twin with master volume locally for $500. Took it home and played it for about eight hours: my Fess hasn't sounded nearly this good through anything else I've plugged it into.

Now the bad news: eight hours into my newfound frenzy, it made a loud noise and blew a fuse. No smoke, nothing else exciting. It's now in at the local tube amp guru getting a going over and a re-cap. Prior to the darkness, this was the cleanest, quietest amp I've ever played, and I suspect it may be even better after.

KP

David Doggett · Posted 19 Jun 2007 10:48 am

As I recall the old literature and history, that was posted once somewhere on the old Forum, the original JBL D series were made for full range speaker systems, and were rated accordingly (around 40 or 50 watts RMS?) to handle things like string bass, electric bass, and drums in recorded music or PA systems. For the more limited range of guitar, they figured they could handle a little more, so upped the rating to around 60 watts. In addition they widened the voice coil gap slightly, which may have cut down on the efficiency slightly, but made them heartier for transporting around. I don't know if they were ever rated at 100 watts, but manufacturers used them in amps with more power than 60 watts, because that was all that was available at the time. I think they may have overlooked the fact that guitar amps are open back, while full range systems are usually closed back. Also, distortion is tougher on a speaker than clean tone. So the JBLs got blown alot in Twins and other amps. Peavey couldn't get JBL to make a more powerful speaker, and so began making their own. Now there are many speakers with higher power ratings.

I've also read that the power rating on Fender amps was intended to advise the type speaker needed, not to be an accurate rating of the amp's power. So in a Twin putting out 85 watts, they were advising the use of a 100 watt speaker, which makes sense.

But of course you can't believe everything you read, either in the old literature, or here on the Forum.

I have a JBL D130 (not F) and a JBL M31 (virtually identical to a D130F) in identical modified Marrs cabinets, and can't hear any difference. The D130 cabinet recently fell from about 10 feet onto a carpeted stair and tumbled down the long flight of stairs. The lead to the outlet jack broke, but when that was repaired the speaker played as good as ever. So I don't know how much sturdier it needs to be.

I would not run a single JBL in a 100 watt amp that I intended to play wide open on guitar or steel. But steelers typically attack notes with the volume pedal held back half-way or more, reserving the rest for sustain, so you have some attenuation compared to regular guitar, even if your amp is set on 10. You can blow a single JBL in a Twin if you try. But many steelers use them with no problems. If I know I am going to be maxing out my Dual Showman Reverb or Super Twin Reverb, I run the two JBLs above, and they are in closed-back cabinets, which also offers more protection than an open-back combo cab. I have not tried them all, but I have never heard a better sounding speaker for pedal steel, and I have heard some that were worse. Also, there is something to said for multiple low wattage speakers as opposed to a single high wattage one.

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Larry Robinson · From: Peachtree City, Georgia, USA

You can't imagine JH doing what, blowing a JBL or telling me he has never blown one?

David Doggett · Posted 20 Jun 2007 11:27 am

Jim S., where does your 25 watts RMS rating for a JBL D130(F) come from? In that link you posted above, Harvey Gerst, the designer said:
"Power specifications for the F series were nominally 35 to about 60
Watts. How did I arrive at these figures? Pretty simple, I played guitar
and bass through them and kept increasing the power till they blew. Then
I downrated them from the power that fried them. Pretty hi-tech, huh? It
seemed to work pretty well (of course we didn't have synth players back
then)."

I'm thinking the 60 watts applied to the D140F designed for bass. The 35 watts must have been for the 10". The D130F must have been closer to the 60 watts of the D140F. The 25 watts in the original specs was for the D130 for integrated full spectrum music.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

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