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Topic: MSA service procedures? |
William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 5:01 am |
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I sold my main backup steel, so it's time to put b/u # 2 in service a 1970 D-10. I got it tuned & playable ,tuning the raises & lowers first & I liked it. The main problem seems to be that the allen head adjusters on the endplate don't stay put for too long. I took the changer out & the rods so I could clean , straighten & lube every thing, not a bad design, very simple to work on, should I use somthing on the threads on the adjusters? I saw a thread last week suggesting swapping out changers from neck to neck , but I dont see any wear & the slots are not all the same size either, besides I use both C6 & E9 Thanks Billy Lee Fraser 
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Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 5:32 am
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Well, William, those hex tuners do wear out...I've had them jump threads on a raise. If they turn too easily, I'd replace them. And don't lube them, they don't need it. You could try turning them around backwards, if they have the hole that goes all the way thru...but, personally, I would prefer replacing them all.
Another thing to check, is that the return springs are functioning correctly...they may have fatigued over time and are not holding the lower finger in place when doing a raise.
One last thought is that the changer may be sticking and not returning properly from a raise or lower. If lubing it doesn't loosen it up, it might need to be removed and thoroughly cleaned. Whenever I have to go this far, I just dismantle everything and clean and lube the whole guitar. If you do this, also do yourself a favor and use a teflon based lube like TriFlow.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 8:25 am
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Hey Mike, I am doing 1 neck at a time,so I don't mix things up. I see what you mean about the spring tension on the lower fingers , it seems like the tension has to be sufficient to keep pressure on the fingers, the ones on this MSA are brass? should i grind the nicks out on the surfaces? I am trying to relieve binding, I'm cleaning the axle & lubing every thing & will reassemble 1 change at a time. The B pedal is simple, but should I do the A or C first ? it seems like I get the A just right & then I have trouble getting the E to F# or the B to C#. Thanks Billy Lee
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Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 12:36 pm
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Billy, the rodding should be pretty straight forward. When I disassemble a guitar which has great pedal action, I notate every rod's position at the bellcrank and changer, so I can put them back exactly like they were before. But, sometimes that's not the case, or I want to set it up differently, to my liking. Either way, run the longest rods first, then the next longest. The Carter website has a rodding chart to give you a good idea which holes to use on the bellcranks and changer, if you don't already know, and lots of other good info.
Click Here
I matters which holes are used for which pulls. I've used the above rodding chart as a general guide and had good success.
I've not seen brass springs on an MSA, so they were probably changed out at some point...what matters is that the lower finger stays against the stop plate when that string is raised to it's highest note. Like the A pedal raising B to C#...a whole tone on that string. A weak spring will let the lower finger pull away from the stop while you're trying to raise it...thus negating the full raise. Either replace it with a stronger spring, or shorten it one coil at a time till the correct tension is reached. Yes, it's a pain, but necessary to achieve good pedal action. (note: too strong a spring will cause lowers to be overly stiff.)
"Grind the nicks out of the surfaces"...which surfaces? If you're talking about the changer fingers, yes. They should move smoothly and be totally loose when unstrung and unrodded...they should flop back and forth. If not, find the cause of the bind and fix it...usually gummy lube near the rivet, or a bent changer finger.
If you're talking about the cross shafts, they only need to be smooth enough that the bellcranks can slide on them. Smoother is prettier, but not really necessary.
The MSA mechanics are among the best, and most reliable of all, IMHO. They're built to withstand a heck of a lot of playing. Just an occasional touch of lube is all that's needed. Again, TriFlow, or a similar teflon type lube, is the best for a steel...won't collect dirt and grime like oil, and lasts much longer than any oil I've ever found.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 12:46 pm
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Oops, you asked about the tuning problems. Each pedal is independent of the others. If you raise the B string with the A pedal and it tunes correctly, but when you tune the C pedal, it throws the A pedal off, then the rod pulling the B string on the A pedal doesn't have enough slack. All of the pulls on the guitar should have some slack in the rods when no pedals or levers are activated...none of the rods should be snug.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 4:23 pm
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Billy, after cleaning the gunk out of the changer and lubing up with TRI FLOW... (in a little black bottle, I get it at the local hardware stores.)
I would replace as the tuning nuts, there is a forum member who sells them on ebay, also get a few of those brass pivot bushings, the ones on the knee levers get square and wornout.. leaving lots of slop..
also what Mike Wheeler said.. all the pulls need some slack, don't take it all out as you adjust it.
B
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Bo Borland
Rittenberry SD10 , Derby D-10, Quilter TT12, Peavey Session 400 w/ JBL, NV112, Fender Blues Jr. , 1974 Dobro 60N squareneck, Rickenbacher NS lapsteel, 1973 Telecaster Thinline, 1979 blonde/black Frankenstrat
Currently picking with
Mason Dixon Band masondixonband.net |
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William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2007 3:21 am MSA
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Hey guys, thanks again, I put the changer back together,swapping finger assys from strings with the most wear to ones with no wear , every thing moves nicely, & not too much slop. The big issue now is the B to C# on the C pedal. This steel was setup to raise the hi B with the same rod on both the A & C pedals & I wonder if I should use a seperate rod & hole on the changer or try to get it to work on the same rod? there are 4 choices per string 2 raises? & 2 lowers any thoughts ? it tunes & plays great until I get to the C pedal. Mike ,the brass I referred to is the lower fingers that the springs attatch to,I deburred them, pedal stops would be a nice touch. This sure looks like a ZB underneath as compared to later models.  Billy Lee
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Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2007 4:17 am
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Billy, those two pulls should really be separate...one rod for each pedal. It was probably done that way to free up a changer raise hole, and allow another pull on that string (3 total). At any rate, separating them would be best.
If you need both the B to C# pulls on the same rod, it can be done and be in tune. To start, make sure the same hole is used on both the A and C pedal bellcranks. What you do is loosen the A pedal's brass bushing so the rod moves freely. Now accurately tune the C pedal's raise for the B string. Once it's tuned, move the A pedal's bellcrank towards the changer far enough to allow adequate pedal travel to raise the B note to C#. Then tighten the brass bushing. Test the pull and reset the bushing until the two raises are closely matched.
Fine tune this A pedal raise, by adjusting the A pedal's travel stop (set screw), so that it matches the C pedal raise exactly. You are simply making both pedals pull the same raise exactly the same. Once done, you'll be able to tune the C pedal, or the A pedal, with the tuning nut, and both pulls will be tuned at the same time...no separate tuning will be needed.
Like I said, separating them with two rods would be best. A double raise/double lower changer can be limited in what can be done, but sometimes work-arounds can be used (like the above) to overcome those limitations.
You said "pedal stops would be a nice touch"...do you mean you don't have any? It would be an allen screw (or similar) on the front frame where the pedal rod attaches. When the pedal is depressed, it's crank stops when it hits the frame. There should be a stop screw there to adjust that stop position.
If you don't have one, that's OK, but, for the one rod/two pull setup above, you'll have to fine tune the A pedal's pull by playing with the brass bushing's position...a little more work, but will achieve the same result.
Once you get each pull set up, operate it and watch the lower return spring to make sure it's not letting the lower finger move at all.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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William Fraser
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2007 6:15 am MSA
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Hey Mike, I have it playable now, I watched the rods,springs & changer from below,& the next issue is the lock nuts on the rods where they go into the changer,if they aren't tight the rods rotate & it all changes , so back tuit. I'll keep you posted, it's close! Billy Lee 
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Billy Lee ,Pro-II,, Session 400,Session 500 , Supro , National, SpeedDemons,& too many Archtops & Stratotones.Lots of vintage parts for Kay ! etc. |
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