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Topic: Learning the number system. |
Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 6:26 pm |
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I've been playing guitar for 50 years. I know nothing about reading music, although I've tried a couple of times, I have always played by ear and can play about anything that I want. The problem is I've been invited to play at a couple steel shows. One this year which I'll be playing a 6 string and singing, one next year,that I'll be playing steel and singing at.
What is the most simple way to learn the number system.I kinda understand the basics but I want to be able to put these songs on a chart so the staff band can play them. Thank you in advance. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 6:56 pm
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Bill, I would be happy to teach you the chord number system. I am sure others would as well but I think it would be best for you to have one person working with you on it. If you want my help, just email me.
Or check this out: http://www.ducksdeluxe.com/nashvillenumbersystem.html
That might be more information than you really want. It is quite simple to explain and understand the basics, which in most cases is enough to make a chord chart.
Jerry |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Jun 2007 7:56 pm
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Thanks Jerry, the link really helps to understand.
Now I just need to work with it and do the memory thing. |
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 3:39 am
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| Bill.... irregardless of how you learn, it will be the best thing you'll ever do in learning to play the steel. It begins you thinking in patterns and and goes a long ways in making this guitar more unstandable. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 5:27 am
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There's a great book called "The Nashville Number System" or somethig close - I have a copy, and if I can find it I'll post the name/author.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 5:40 am
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Jim, Bobbe sells those, I believe.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 6:04 am
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| Thanks everyone, what I didn't get was the minors 2&6. Now it all makes perfect sense. |
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Willis Vanderberg
From:
Petoskey Mi
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 6:47 am
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The book is called " The Nashville numbering system "by Arthur D. Levine.
It was published by Gibraltar Press Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. |
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 7:33 am
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When I was a kid[about ten] was learning to play guitar,I sent off and got the U.S school of music course for guitar[in fact you could get it for ANY instrument,these courses were the best I've ever seen]Anyway in about a year I was a fairly good t sight reader on guitar,came in handy over the years tears playing in groups using sheet music and FAKE books,On down the road started playing with some country bands,and the guys would start yelling out,GO TO THE FOUR OR THE FIVE,did'nt know what the hell they were talking about,but had to learn in a hurry,if I was going to play with EAR musicians.Don't let the number system scare you,very simple.
_________________
Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 10:03 am
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Jim, the link you posted is a little different than what we used in SoCal during the years I was playing there. The II and VI weren't minors unless designated by a small "m" after them. If vocalized you'd say something like "The intro is a One, two minor, five, one" or something like that. A II, III, or VI, were always major unless an m , 6, or 7 or whatever was added.
I had a friend who took some music theory in college and his was even different. Like the page you linked they'd call a II a minor but if you were in C and going to a D7 they'd call it "five of five" which I always thought took too much thought, just say "two seven" and everyone understands.
Does anyone else think of the number system like the SoCal way?..........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 10:45 am
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Bill, I would never discourage anyone from learning about the number system, but I have to say:
The main advantage of the number system is that the chart applies to the tune you're playing no matter what key it has to be in, and it makes transposing easier.
Having said that, if you're presenting your own music, and you know what keys you like to play things in, I'd be tempted just to write a chord chart for the band.
-John |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 12:02 pm Suspended.
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| I don't know how to ask this but please someone explain Suspended chords and their use and how to look at the say Key G or any key what Supended Chord would most likely used. Bout as clear as mud? |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 2:37 pm
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The number system goes back centuries, and is simply the naming of chords according to which note of the scale is the root of the chord. But there are different ways to specifiy the minors and other details, and the "Nashville Number System" is just one way. I prefer to have the minors noted. Some people insist that the II, III and VI are automatically minors, because theoretically using only scale notes they have to be minors. But real music doesn't stick to scale notes, and accidentals are common. I find the II and III are majors as often as minors in real music, so they need to be specified to avoid confusion. The number system is probably easier for steel than for any other instrument. It's always the same number of frets up to the IV, or just mash the A and B pedals. Other instruments you have to learn the exact letter names of the chords in each key, and be able to convert the numbers to those letters.
Robert, there may be fancier theoretical explanations of suspended chords, but practically speaking a sus chord has one note of the chord played a whole step up, and it usually immediately resolves by dropping that one note down to the correct note for the chord. The most common sus is the sus4. In C that would be C F G (Csus4), and it sounds like the F (4) wants to drop down to the 3rd to give C E G. Less common is a sus6, where you play the 6th (C E A), and the 6th sounds like it wants to drop down to the 5th. A really beautiful sus chord on E9 is sus2, where you hit the 7th string (along with the 5th and 6th strings) and then resolve it by hitting the 8th string. |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2007 4:56 pm Suspended
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| Thanks |
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Bobbe Seymour
From:
Hendersonville TN USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 6:25 am Number system books,
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David Dogget, yep, this is a very simple way to instantly communicate with another musician instantly. A wonderful way and it only takes a little while (hour?) to learn well.
And again, YES, we have these books complete with CD on sale now. 615 822 5555
Bobbe
Steel guitar Nashville |
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John Steele
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 8:08 am
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| Quote: |
practically speaking a sus chord has one note of the chord played a whole step up,
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Whoa.... how about a half step ?
Robert, a suspended chord has no third in it, it usually employs a fourth instead of a third. That's a half tone up. If the chord was C, you'd use an F note in it, rather than an E.
-John |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 12:11 pm
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| Oops! Thanks, John. What I should have said is the suspended note is one scale note up from one of the notes of the chord. For a sus4, that is a halfstep. For a sus6 or sus2, it is a whole step. The sus4 is so common that if someone just says suspended, with no number given, it's a sus4. But other suspended chords have their uses too. |
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Roger Crawford
From:
Griffin, GA USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 12:23 pm
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| OK...back to the subject. I've studied different charts from different players, and all pretty much conform to the link that Jerry posted. I have used that with great success, but have not yet gotten a consensious of opinion on how to chart a "push" into the next chord. I've had some people tell me to use a diagonal arrow, but where should it be located? Other than that, I've got a good handle on the chart/number system. |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 5:17 pm
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How about when you have to follow a singer or band leader in real-time using only the fingers on one hand as the cue? 1 to 5 is fine, but how do you do a 6 or 7?
I directed many tunes backing up our opry singers (and the singers sometimes directed the band using signals behind their back for te band to see) using my picking hand for chord changes, but never knew the trick, if any, to get the 6 or 7 option.
Thanx,
Jim |
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Jody Sanders
From:
Magnolia,Texas, R.I.P.
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Posted 18 Jun 2007 9:30 pm
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| As Bobbe said, it is much easier to communicate , especially on stage, with the other musicians. It is much easier to hold up one finger, four fingers, five fingers, two fingers than to yell A---D---E---B with all the noise on the stage. IMHO, Jody. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 20 Jun 2007 9:51 am
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Jim, for one hand signaling of chord changes it's usually best (IMHO) to use the system where you do this. It relates to the actual chord signature found on sheet music.
A.......three fingers up designating 3 sharps
Bb/A#...two fingers down.....two flats
B.......five fingers up, five sharps
C.......just make a C shape with your hand
C#......we used to just make the C shape and wiggle the hand......
D......two fingers up, two sharps.
D#/Eb.. three fingers down, 3 flats
E......4 fingers up, 4 sharps
F......1 finger down, one flat
F#/Gb..you can either use two hands for 7 sharps or do the one finger down and wiggle your hand or some other way you like.......
G......one finger up, one sharp
G#/Ab..four fingers down, 4 flats.....
There are probably better ways to do it but this always worked for us in the old days....JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Terry Sneed
From:
Arkansas,
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Posted 20 Jun 2007 3:08 pm book and VHS
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I bought the number system book and cd from Bobbe, and it has really helped me. I also bought a VHS video from Bobbe, called video tab (volume 3) it really helps you to understand what the numbers mean when somebody calls for a 5511 intro. 
Terry |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 20 Jun 2007 6:54 pm
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Jerry's system is pretty widely used to communicate the key of a song, but Jim's question, if I understood it correctly, really refers to communicating an individual chord within a song, as in how do you indicate a 6 chord or a 6m chord (or a 7 or b7 chord) without taking both hands off your instrument to do it? My answer (as a bandleader)? Hand out charts in advance! 
OR, I suppose for a 6, you could flash them five fingers, followed quickly by 1 finger. If, between seeing that, and hearing the rest of the band actually play the 6 chord, they still can't get it, I suggest you show them the other finger, remove both of their hands from their instrument and invite them to take a seat in the audience until the show is over. Then explain politely that you can still be friends... |
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Mickey Adams
From:
Bandera Texas
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Posted 20 Jun 2007 8:02 pm Numbers
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The number system is based on understanding basic math...thats all it is. ie: a 13 chord contains a (6, 7)...6+7=13...A C scale has 7 tones, 1 and 8 being C...roots. Play a C scale...but start on the 2nd note (D) and end on D one octave higher, using ONLY the notes that are DIATONIC (No sharps or flats) to Cmajor. You have played the notes contained in the next MODE....and it relates to Dm.(harmonic minor and melodic minor vary by one interval)..the "2" chord in the number system relative to Cmajor..This is a fundemental lesson in basic theory...Intervals...the magic word...the distance from one note to the next...Transpose them to any key. They remain the same distance from any datum (starting reference point). Learning modes is a necessity in developing an understanding of how specific intervals relate to specific chords...All music can be dissected into a mathematical equation(s)...It is a wonderful door to open to pentatonic guitar players. I cant tell you how many of them know 1,4,5...but have no idea as to the WHY they are what they are...MATH....Im retiring to write a basic theory course...This was given to me at age 7...And Im happy to share.....
_________________
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 20 Jun 2007 9:30 pm
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For one handed 6's and 7's...
I've always used just your thumb for a 6, and thumb and forefinger for a 7.
Works like a charm...especially if you let the other guys know about it beforehand. |
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