Pre-Amp Questions

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I have a C3000B and also never find much beyond
High Hat I like it on. I more or less regret buyinh it.
And that doesn't happen often.

Had some C1000's back in the day, were OK.
but same story,
never cared to buy more.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Here's another thumbs-down for the C1000 and C3000 mic's. Overly crispy and edgy. Seriously lacking in warmth.

Brad

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

It's interesting how the microphone market has evolved in recent years. When AKG introduced the C1000 /3000 series mics, it was at a time when quality recording condensers were priced beyond the reach of amateur recording enthusiasts, and they represented a good choice in terms of value. There wasn't really much of anything that sounded better for the price back then. They sounded "clear" and "detailed" to those who had only used low end dynamic mics. If you hadn't heard better mics, you wouldn't know how brittle and thin sounding they actually are. I think that the C1000 could be battery powered, which was a plus if you didn't have phantom power.

Then, almost overnight, the cheap Chinese condenser mics started flooding the low-end market, with good sounding mics that are still getting better. Not a threat to the Neumanns, Shoeps, high end AKG's and such, that's a whole other market. There's a huge number of inexpensive recording mics out there now for the home studio.

I haven't heard the AKG perception series, but for the price they are selling for, they are almost certainly Chinese made, and thus are probably comparable to most of the other Chinese recording mics on the market today, which are fairly decent, for the most part.

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Yes, the Perception series are manufactured in China. I never used any of the high end stuff so I don't know what I'm missing, but these have it all over an SM-58 for recording vocals (or fiddle) in a home studio. 57's and 58's served me well for many years in live performances, but I couldn't believe how much more detailed the condenser mics are.

The first song I recorded using these mics was an instrumental with a 3 part fiddle intro and outro. On the first take for the harmony parts, I just sat and let it record through from the end of the intro to the beginning of the outro. In the playback I could hear myself breathing, my knees creaking and other sounds you don't want in a recording. I had to record another take using auto punch in at the appropriate times.

I doubt I'll ever own a $15,000 mic, but I'll eventually upgrade the Perceptions for something nicer. Right now, the weak link in my signal chain is the preamp. I've been lurking in some of the home recording forums, and several people say that you need to spend a grand to noticeably improve upon this:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Studio-Projects-VTB1-Tube-Blend-Mic-Preamp?sku=180360

It's not stereo, but I figured out that recording in stereo poses some other problems I don't know how to solve yet. Opinions or experiences with this box? I'm also looking for a used Symmetrix SX202. Which would I be better off with?

Cheers,
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Johnny Thomasson

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

The Studio Projects VTB-1 is just another one of those solid state preamps with a low voltage tube stage tacked on to it to add coloration (distortion) to the sound. I haven't heard one myself, so I can't say whether it's any better or worse than any of the rest of them, but I don't think it would be better than the DMP3 you mentioned earlier. Studio Projects has a pretty good line of microphones, though.

A used Symetrix 202 is a good choice, I think you'd find it a significant improvement over the Behringer mixer, and better than the others you've mentioned, but if you can save a little more for one of the preamps that Brad links to earlier in this thread, you might be happier in the long run. I know, it's a hobby, and you gotta stop somewhere...

Also if you're good with a soldering iron, and want a good pre with a little character, consider the Hamptone, which will give you two channels for about $700.

Here's my earlier thread about it:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=102831

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I did a session in a home studio last week. The engineer had a Mac ProTools setup, with a pair of Avalon preamps for the front end. I ran my POD XT into one of them, and we just used the speakers - no phones - to monitor my part as I played.

Man, what a smooth, clean sound! I was absolutely blown away. It was so much "softer" in texture than the feeling I get at home, running into the guitar jacks of my Roland VS recorder. I came away thinking "I gotta get one of those." Then I looked them up on the internet. They cost something like $2300.

Plus they are so pretty looking, I don't think I could put one into the rack without Mrs Lee noticing. "What's that shiny thing?" "You spent how much on it?"

Oh well. I can dream, can't I? Wink

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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

more preamp porn Wink

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Steve Stallings
Emmons Legrande II 8X5

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

Here is a pic of the guts... great build quality!

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Steve Stallings
Emmons Legrande II 8X5

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Very cool. I always liked Anthony Demaria's stuff. It's interesting to see him merge with Presonus. I like seeing those Grayhill switches in there. Always a sign of a good build quality. Mu-metal cased in/out transformers too. And, of course, tubes.......

Nice!

Brad

Buddy Lewis · From: Branson, MO

Sounds like you're going through what all artist go through when they start recording themselves. My advise would be to look into recording software for your computer. It's much cheaper than buying all hardware gear. Get a decent recording software, with decent sound editing plug-ins, record your performance and edit it later. Focus on the performance first then you can spend hours, days and months if you like tweeking the sound until you get it just like you want it. Buying electronics on ebay is risky at best. Computer recording is not the future of recording - it's the present. It doesn't have to cost a fortune.
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vocals and back-up vocals, bass and rhythm guitar

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

Rich Weiss · From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

I guess no one has mentioned it, but I have been very happy with a pair of Brent Averill 1272 preamps.
They are direct copies of Neve 1272 preamps.

I've been using the same ones for over four years, and they are amazing.

http://www.brentaverill.com/products/index.asp?itemnum=1

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

b0b
If it were possible, would you consider playing the Avalon 737 live with a power amp and speakers?

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

A buddy from Pataya moved in next door to the studio,
an he has a pair of Avalon Pre's for sale,
just sitting in boxes with about 10 hours of use on them...

But between the wedding and studio building
I can see clear to buy either.

But at least I can borrow them for a good project if needed.
But it makes me ITCH just KNOWING that they are right there... DRAT!
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Avalon 737 live?
Sure, almost any instrument.
A classic that works for most anything well.

But I sure as heck ain't letting
anybody ELSE roadie for me...
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Johnny, I also play fiddle and have a little recording studio. I have never been able to get that sound that you mentioned earlier in this thread until I added a $59 ART tube preamp to my studio, Didn't have to spend alot of money and the thing works great on fiddle, bass, steel and vocals. I still don't sound like the pro's from Nashville but the preamp made a world of difference. I went ahead and ordered 2 of the $20 tubes, 12ax7, just for backup because I hear the tubes do go out.

PS: Did you know Benny Thomasson?
Thanks-Henry
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Henry,

Thanks for the info. I'm trying out a Studio Projects VTB1 preamp that my good friend Bill Terry loaned me. It has a 12AX7 and a feature where you can blend as much tube sound as you want. Like you, my recorded sound still isn't like Mark O'Connor's (now there's a monster, huh?), but I've gotten much better results than with mics run straight into the DAW. I still have lots of experimenting to do with it.

Benny Thomasson... yes, I knew him and considered him a dear friend. He taught me lots of what I know. We decided we were distantly related. His father was named Luke; my grandfather had a cousin named Luke and both came from the same part of the country. Plus, Thomasson is not a common spelling. Maybe we aren't, but we both liked to think so. He always treated me like family, and would never accept a dime for any of the many hours long sit down sessions we had. Benny had a way about him that made it so fun to learn. For instance, on using the bow: "you're workin' WAY too hard, son... you look like you're pumpin' water." Or, "do it like this... makes it sound like there's more fiddlin' goin' on". Benny was one of the greatest players ever and one of the finest people I've ever known.

Back to the regularly scheduled topic. I'm now convinced that a multiple mic setup will be required to get the recorded sound I'm after. Fiddles just don't put out sound from a single point like vocalists, amps and most other instruments do.

I know this is a problem that has been solved, because you can hear the sound on certain pro recordings (but not all). It seems like you could, but you can't just google up the solution. Yes, I know that high end equipment is used in the A studios, but I can't just start buying stuff until I figure out what works. I'd be willing to drop some coins if I knew what to drop them on. I've talked to plenty of people who had expensive stuff that doesn't work any better than what I'm using. And just because something works great for vocals, steel, guitar, juice harp, etc., DOES NOT mean it will work great for fiddle. The preamp does make a world of difference though.

For any who don't understand what I'm talking about or think I'm crazy... listen to any of George Jones' later recordings and you'll hear the sound I'm after. Listen to any Dwight Yoakum song with a fiddle in it and you'll hear something pretty close to what I'm getting now. Both are recorded in high end studios using expensive equipment.

ps: Benny taught Mark O'Connor too. Guess Mark had a few more lessons than me... Laughing

It's too bad Mark never decided to take up steel. There's not much doubt in my mind what would happen if he did.
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Johnny Thomasson

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Johnny, good luck with you recording. Yep, Mark O'Conner is a monster. I've known him since he started playing fiddle. I think maybe that Benny was Mark's inspiration to play. Benny was one of the greatest Ole time fiddlers that will ever live. He taught me alot too and was a great teacher. Any, againn. good luck and if you find any secrets to recording the fiddle, let me know.---Henry
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I usually like to mic fiddles about a foot up,
directly over the F holes, but angled vertically
above the players head, not 90° to the top,
with a small diaphragm condensor mic.
if you're lucky and the player always goes back to position,
the mic can 'see' into the top F hole,
and get some of the 'center of the back plate'
as it interacts with the top.

A smaller diaphragm tracks these VERY fast harmonics properly,
and there is some space to let the whole top resonate
and blend it's sounds together;
all it's areas and some of the back directly.

But also not get the breathing of the player
in the recording as much.

Then if space and environment allow another mic
behind and below the fiddle about 1-2 feet @90° +/-
to capture the back,
then blend them together, mostly the top, in the mix.

If the player moves around more,
sometimes I put it a bit higher.
Expanding the 'sweet spot'.
But this depends on if it is
live in a big room with a loud band,
an over-dub, or a well ballanced chamber group etc.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

David,

Interesting. I haven't tried it yet, but I've been thinking that a mic below the fiddle might help a lot. The back reproduces the lowest frequencies, being the only part of a fiddle that has enough mass to vibrate slowly enough.

Whether playing into a mic or using a bridge pickup, everyone (including me) has a tendency to roll off highs. This is a band-aid solution, and creates other problems. My theory is that when everything is "right", flat settings on all the mics is what will work best.

So, are you using a small diaphram condenser for that too? What do the players think about their recorded sound?

Good info, thanks!
_________________
Johnny Thomasson

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The back can be small or large.
I would lean toward matched mics top and bottom.
But I don't have an example in MP5 to play you.
(see below)

The frequency range of a violin is pretty high
and most of the dynamics is in that range too.
For me it's better to track those fast transients acurately.
But might use a U-87 on the bottom for a
fatter, warmer sound to blend with the top.

One of the reasons people tend to roll off the highs live,
is because the mics generally used in PAs are not very flat
and have a pronounced presence bump.
So it makes the fiddle sound strident.

Thing is it ALSO rolls of the nice top harmonics too,
from up above the presence hump.
You lose the stridencey, but also the
natural violin resonace interactions.

With a GOOD condensor mic it will be
pretty darned flat on top
and can catch the natural sound,
this is good for using in a mix,
because at lower volumes it will
still have it's character while
blended with other instruments.

I try to aim through the F hole
towards the back to get some of
the warmth in the top mic,
but then blend in more back mic
when it has it's solo, or up
front placement.

Now to mic pre-amps.
OK a tube amp will affect the
transients, sometimes in a very nice way.
A S.S. pre will; track them very cleanly
and quickly. Tubes will mellow them out.

I might use tube on top or SS, but likely
tube on bottom for added warmth,
and also the higher frequency phase issues
of using two mics will mellow out a bit IMHO
if one is SS and the other tube.
Depends on the mics too.

If you record as flat ass possible trying
to get ALL the range of the instrument,
you can always mellow it out later.
But if your didn't get it recorded then
it ain't there to use.

Here is a track using a Brauner valvet tube mic
on top, and a Neuman below. Both big capsule,
but it was an overdub so I went with what I
liked on this particular violin.
Both mics went into a Aphex Thermionix tube
preamp. So it is actually inversed.
Transistor below into tube,
and tube / tube on top. But with these
mics and this violin, in this mix, it worked.

It is an Canadian friend doing some Magreb influenced
parts.
Mostly at the begining. The mandolin is also
with the Brauner. Sorry not steel on this one.

Morrocain Milkbowl
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

On mics my neighbor has loaned my 3 AKG D 3400 mics.
I actually like them quite a bit.

Used them in a pinch 2 times for vocals live,
and last night on 2 guitar amps live, about 6 inches away.
Sounded great in the live recording.

I am likely gonna buy them off him.
He says they are good for drums too,
but yet to be tried personally.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

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