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Topic: Which MAJ7 is this chord? |
Sherman Willden
From:
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 5:00 am |
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How can I tell? Is it C# MAJ7, A#, D# or G#?
C#
A#
G#
D#
Thank you;
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Sherman L. Willden
It is easy to play the steel guitar. Playing so that the audience finds it pleasing is the difficult act. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 5:55 am
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| Quote: |
How can I tell? Is it C# MAJ7, A#, D# or G#?
C#
A#
G#
D# |
A maj7 chord must have the note a half-step below the chord root present. So a chord with just those notes can't be a maj7 with any of those roots, because none of those notes are a half-step apart.
As a C#, the notes are 1, 6, 5, 2, which makes a C#6 add2 without the 3.
As an A#, the notes are b3, 1, b7, 4, which makes an A#m11 without the 5 or 9 - or you could call it A#m7 sus4 without the 5.
As a G#, the notes are 4, 2, 1, 5, which makes a G# sus4 add2 without the 3.
As a D#, the notes are b7, 5, 4, 1, which makes a D#7 sus4 without the 3.
The only partial maj7 chord (minus root) those notes could possibly make would have to be in D, B, A, or E. Just analyzing the notes using each of these as chord roots:
As a D, the notes are 7, 3, b5, b2, not a maj7.
As a B, the notes are 2, 7, 6, b3, not a maj7.
As a A, the notes are 3, b2, 7, b5, not a maj7.
As a E, the notes are 6, b5, 3, 7, not a maj7.
So, no chord with just those notes can be a straightforward maj7, or a diatonic extension like maj9, in any key. Unless I made a mistake. |
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P Gleespen
From:
Toledo, OH USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 6:36 am
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As they say in Fargo, I'm gonna have to disagree with your police work there. 
Those notes would make a nice Bmaj7 (with a 9 and 13) if you put B in the bass...
If you stacked those notes as fouths like this:
C#
G#
D#
A#
and put that B note down an octave, it'd be very nice sounding.
_________________
Patrick |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 7:02 am
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I'd spell it with flats (Db, Bb, Eb, Ab) and call it a Dbadd9 or Db2. It's the sort of chord that Bill Frisell uses a lot. I really like it.
If you added a C to it, it would be a Dbmaj9 which is a more traditional jazz chord.
The intervals of a maj7 are:
- major 3rd
- minor 3rd
- major 3rd
Your 4 notes don't have those intervals, any way you look at them. They are all "black keys" on a piano. You can't form a major 7th chord using only the black keys.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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P Gleespen
From:
Toledo, OH USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 7:24 am
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| b0b wrote: |
I'd spell it with flats (Db, Bb, Eb, Ab) and call it a Dbadd9 or Db2. It's the sort of chord that Bill Frisell uses a lot. I really like it.
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I just watched a cool Frank Zappa documentary where they showed Ruth Underwood going over the score for a part of the Apostrophe record, and playing it on her marimba. The chords were all "2" chords, or add9 with no third. She then pointed out that that chord form was a big part of FZ's music.
(She then proceeds to play the "heck" out of the part, then at the end she says "well, three mistakes...one for every decade I've been away from the music and the instrument!"   What a player!...but I digress...)
| Quote: |
| If you added a C to it, it would be a Dbmaj9 which is a more traditional jazz chord. |
The C would be nice, but it still wouldn't have a maj 3rd (F) in it. Could you call it a maj chord without that F?
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Patrick |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 8:40 am
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Ah, I did make a mistake here, as pointed out. In B, D# is 3, not b3, so this is incorrect:
| Quote: |
| As a B, the notes are 2, 7, 6, b3, not a maj7. |
Correct analysis: As a B, the notes are 2, 7, 6, 3, which is indeed a Bmaj13 minus root, 5 and 11, or Bmaj7 add9 add13, minus root. Not a straightforward maj7, but a diatonic extension. I shoulda checked more carefully. 
This is one of the disadvantages of doing this mathematically - it's easy to make errors in the translation between notes and numbers. But the mathematical analysis always made more sense to me. I guess I gotta dig out my computer program to do this kind of analysis.
I think we all do agree, however, that no permutation of these notes makes a straightforward maj7 chord. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 9:19 am
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| P Gleespen wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
I'd spell it with flats (Db, Bb, Eb, Ab) and call it a Dbadd9 or Db2.
...
If you added a C to it, it would be a Dbmaj9 which is a more traditional jazz chord. |
The C would be nice, but it still wouldn't have a maj 3rd (F) in it. Could you call it a maj chord without that F? |
I was way worng. That's what happens when I try to do music theory before my morning coffee.
Please ignore my post. I was seeing A# as E# somehow. Everything I said is false.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 9:21 am
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| This is one of the disadvantages of doing this mathematically - it's easy to make errors in the translation between notes and numbers. But the mathematical analysis always made more sense to me. I guess I gotta dig out my computer program to do this kind of analysis. |
This is what happens when you let an engineer get too close to your music.
(Jus' yankin' yer chain, Dave. )
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 1 Jun 2007 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Marc Jenkins
From:
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 10:27 am
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| Quote: |
I just watched a cool Frank Zappa documentary where they showed Ruth Underwood going over the score for a part of the Apostrophe record, and playing it on her marimba. The chords were all "2" chords, or add9 with no third. She then pointed out that that chord form was a big part of FZ's music.
(She then proceeds to play the "heck" out of the part, then at the end she says "well, three mistakes...one for every decade I've been away from the music and the instrument!" What a player!...but I digress...) |
Patrick, what is this documentary called?
Marc |
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P Gleespen
From:
Toledo, OH USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 11:31 am
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Marc,
it's the newly released "Classic Albums" DVD for Overnight Sensation and Apostrophe.
It's got lots of great footage and loads of interviews from the guys (and gal) who were in the band back then, including George Duke, Ruth, Ralph Humphries and Ian Underwood, who looks like an insurance salesman now. 
Also there's some great stuff with Dweezil going through the master tapes and soloing out tracks, including some of the Ikettes background vocals that didn't make the records...
Plus, it's got a couple bonus live tracks including the full "Montana" recorded at the Roxy, and for added forum excitement, "I Am the Slime" from Saturday Night Live featuring the completely badass bass playing of forumite Pat O'Hearn and his very nearly turtle-neck pants!
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Patrick |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 6:43 pm
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Am I missing something? I thought a major 7th chord was 1, 3, 5 ,7.
In C that would be C on the root, E, G and B
B
G
E
C
in descending order. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Jun 2007 8:51 pm
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| Ken Lang wrote: |
Am I missing something? I thought a major 7th chord was 1, 3, 5 ,7.
In C that would be C on the root, E, G and B
B
G
E
C
in descending order. |
You are correct, sir.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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P Gleespen
From:
Toledo, OH USA
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Posted 2 Jun 2007 5:39 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Ken Lang wrote: |
Am I missing something? I thought a major 7th chord was 1, 3, 5 ,7.
In C that would be C on the root, E, G and B
B
G
E
C
in descending order. |
You are correct, sir. |
Of course, that IS correct. It is important to remember though that you don't need to actually PLAY all those notes to get the SOUND of a maj7 chord.
The bass player is pretty much always going to be covering the root and fifth (if he's playing the ROLE correctly), so really all that's necessary for, say, a steel guitarist to play is the 3rd and the 7th to get that sound.
If you wanted to add in any of the extended tensions (9,11,13) they can sound nice in the proper context, and since you're not playing the full 4 notes of the chord, you've got some room to do it.
It's also a great thing to keep in mind that a minor triad sounds like a major7th chord when you play it up a third from the root...I'm sure I can explain that more clearly...Cmaj7 = Emin triad...
I think there's a tendency to WANT to play the whole chord, but when you do, it tends to muck things up a bit.
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Patrick |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Jun 2007 6:00 am
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It certainly is true that 1, 3, 5, 7 is a "closed-voice" maj7 chord. But one can permute the order of the notes to give inversions or consider opened-up voicings, which still give a maj7 chord. To rule out maj7 completely, one needs to look for those. Or one can extend the maj7 by adding diatonic thirds past the 7 and get extended maj7 chords. In this case, as was pointed out, one can get a Bmaj7 add9 add 13 without the root using these notes. When would it be useful? Perhaps let the bass player supply the root.
For example, a common chord substitution to use a minor chord - 1, b3, 5 - as the top 3 notes of a maj7 chord whose root is a major third below the minor's root, and let someone else supply the root. In your example, E minor - E, G, B - is a Cmaj7 without the root. If someone else takes the root, it's complete. But even without that, it can often be played as a Cmaj7 substitute.
I am sometimes shocked how a set of notes can - in some context - be used harmonically in ways that one would not normally think of by analyzing them this way.
Edited to add - I was writing while Mr. Gleespen posted. I concur with everything he said. |
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Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
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Posted 2 Jun 2007 7:41 am
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| I see it as a C#69, with the root on top and the third missing. In a band context, someone else in the band would be playing a chord with a third in it. |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 2 Jun 2007 10:31 am
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| I use minor triads as Maj7 chords all the time. You really don't even need the root. When playing solo steel or guitar a minor triad can be made to sound like a Maj7 just by its place in the chord progression. One way to look at it is that the relative minor triad gives the IVMaj7 of the key you are playing in. In practical terms that means the C6 tuning, which contains an Am triad, also contains an FMaj7 chord. The G makes it an FMay7,9 chord. And since the 10-string C6 tuning usually has an F, that supplies the root and makes C6 an FMaj7,9 neck. On E9 (and uni), any chord played with the AB pedals becomes a Maj7 by releasing the B pedal. So at the nut, the AB pedals give an A chord, and releasing the B pedal gives an AMaj7 chord (without the root). And the E lower lever, which gives a B6 or G#m chord, also functions to make it an EMaj7,9 neck - which is very convenient since we all know the E neck frets so well. And in jazz a Maj7 grip frequently functions as a movable chord. So the standard minor grips and pedal/lever combinations function as Maj7 movable chord grips. When I realized this, it really opened up a lot of jazz possibilities for me. |
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Bob Ritter
From:
pacfic, wa
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Posted 2 Jun 2007 10:55 am
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I call them the naughty chord's...it is nice to be naughty every once in a while.
_________________
Let's go catch a steelhead |
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Richard Nelson
From:
Drogheda, Louth, Ireland
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