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Topic: MSA indentification/set-up Help for Newbie! |
Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 15 May 2007 10:12 am |
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This is pretty long! I would be very Grateful for any help! Thanks in advance.
Here is all the info...Sounds great and seems to be very well made.....
MSA (micro Inc.) Super Sustain II Classic XL, 12 string, 4 pedal + 4 Knee levers
SERIAL # 1C 5836
It is a nice Green (looks like all wood) maybe Maple?
It has a George L's e-66 pick-up (I am assuming is an aftermarket installation)
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Set-up
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I have a few questions, If anyone could help out it would be greatly appreciated. Bare with me, I am new to the LINGO!
1. I was told that it was a 12 string Universal (which I would like to play)...but looking at the current copedents, it seems totally different. Looking at the current set-up, does anyone see another possibilty of how it may have been tuned? I feel like it has either been set-up by someone with very specific ideas or that it was taken apart & not put together properly.
2. Most set-ups I have seen for Universals have more than 4 pedals. Does anyone have a set-up for a 12 U that is 4+4? I was thinking of setting up P 12&3 for E9 and then P4 for B6(pull to the 7th) Not sure about the Knee levers yet except for the "D" Knee to get into the C6 side.
3.I am having trouble finding Info that is SPECIFIC to E9/B6 12 string. Any ideas?
4. This one may be Tricky! It has all regular gray pedal tuners except for 3 RED ones...I thought they were just replacements but when I flipped it over and really started to poke around I noticed that they correspended to 3 of the pulling arms* that had also been painted RED. Why would these 3 be singled out with red? *I think called pulling collars?
5. When was it made and how might it have been set-up originally? (Reece may be able to help with this?) |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 May 2007 1:06 pm
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Danny, I'd guess your MSA was made in the fall of '77, maybe Sept. or Oct., and it's pretty much the standard MSA setup for extended E9th. There's tuning setups and other info posted here on the forum, so do a search under "extended E9th", and you'll come up with plenty of hits...if you search the "old" forum database. As to the red parts, I have no idea, but someone probably just did that so they could navigate and make changes/adjustments easier with the guitar upside-down. With only "4 on the floor", you're missing some of the important Bb6th uni stuff, so if you're a beginner, I'd just play it for awhile (maybe a year or two) like it is...there's still lots of good stuff in there!  |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 16 May 2007 3:55 pm
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| Thanks Donny. I have found ALOT of E9th Extended on the old forum so I might be busy for a while! I am still hanging on to the Universl Dream for a bit longer given the various styles of music I play....I was thinking that I may add pedals in the future after I get the hang of the "E9th side" That being said, all this new info may convince me to set her up for the E9thEx for a bit. Thanks for your reply- |
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Joe Butcher
From:
Dallas,Texas, USA
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Posted 16 May 2007 4:01 pm
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I take lessons from Maurice Anderson (the "A" in MSA). Ive seen him answer questions about his steels on here before, as he has kept extensive records of all the steels he made and sold.
You can also email him at reece@msapedalsteels.com
hes a great guy and can probably tell you lots.
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 16 May 2007 4:46 pm
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Danny-
You could learn a lot with this setup I suppose, after a lot of mechanical changes, but you'd have a lot to unlearn also, when you go to real Uni, which it's obvious you really want to do.
If I were you, I'd go with a rig that has what you want, and start there. If you want to stay simple with E9 ideas to begin with, you can still do that, but there will be no re-learning when you expand.
Just a thought.
-dean- |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 16 May 2007 6:10 pm
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Dean-
What about setting it up exactly as a Uni that was missing 3 or 4 pedals? I am wrong or would the missing pedals be mostly the B6th stuff? |
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Steve English
From:
Baja, Arizona
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Posted 16 May 2007 8:37 pm
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I'm surprised nobody mentioned the "Day" pedal setup your guitar setup indicates (your pedal 2 & pedal 3).
I don't know anything about the universal setup, so I'm not sure if it's even an issue.
Here is the setup as listed in the back of my original MSA booklet:
Hope that helps some.
I don't think the red stuff makes any difference, probably just someone's way of coding something. The guitar's obviously been altered by someone. Pictures would help determine what's going on....
_________________
Always remember you're unique..... Just like everyone else |
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Dean Parks
From:
Sherman Oaks, California, USA
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Posted 16 May 2007 10:08 pm
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Danny-
Yes, exactly, that would work (forget extended E9, go for the pedals of the "E9" side, and put the levers in a reasonable configuration). By the time you added the pedals, you'd have a solidly learned "home base".
-dean- |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 May 2007 6:59 am
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Danny, from what I can see from your chart, the tuning on the open strings is a Universal tuning...no 9th string D, but the pedal setup is for an Extended E9th tuning. I'd say someone strung it up with an E9/B6th set, when they should have used an Ext.E9th set.
If that's the case, put a set of Ext. E9th strings on it, and tune pedal 3, string 10 (which would now be a B note), to raise only 1 step, instead of 1.5 step. Everything else looks pretty good. All the basic stuff seems to be there.
edit: The guitar is definitely not a Universal. To make it a Uni you'd have to add some hardware...3 more pedals and the associated rods, bellcranks, etc. If you'd like to break into the Uni format with the guitar like it is, you'd just need to move a couple pulls. Then, at some later date, add the extra pulls for the complete Uni copedant.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike
Last edited by Mike Wheeler on 17 May 2007 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 17 May 2007 7:00 am
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So after many days of figurin'......and pages of what looks like some cryptic cipher, I have come up with a solid start for my coped. I call it "The Sub-Universal"
Main Points:
I am leaving P4 and RKR open for now until I can decide on how they would be most useful for B6.
I should be able to use the full E9th tuning (getting the D on the 9th string with LKL)
I will have a non-pedal B6 tuning (for now) when I engage the RKL. I figure alot of great music has been played on open C6 without the use of pedals.
Pedals ABC are staying reversed (Day set-up [thanks Steve English]) because I already know quite a bit on that set-up.
Thats basically it. I would love some feedback and ideas about P4 and RKR! Thanks for all the input!!!! |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 May 2007 7:07 am
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There ya go. I like that. It's the E9th part of a Uni tuning. You can add in the rest later as time and money permit. Cool!
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 17 May 2007 7:09 am
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| Mike-it looks like we were posting at the same time...When I bought this steel I was told it was a Universal and unfortunatley I have been playing this thing for a little while now and have some major reservations about changing to and Ext E9th tuning. I should have a hard enough time dealing with pedaL changes! |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 May 2007 7:23 am
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Agreed, Danny. The 9th string D is the problem when switching between Uni and Ext E9th. It's best to stick with one or the other.
For P4, you might get suggestions to put the Franklin change on it. I wouldn't. Not if you plan on going on to a Uni tuning. P4-P7 are the 6th tuning's pedals. Now, if you went to 8 pedals, then, yes, P4 could be a Franklin pedal and you'd still have the 4 6th pedals also.
As for RKR, I have my E to F change there. My RKL is the same as yours. But you still have an open knee position regardless. I lower my 6th, and 3rd, string G#s to G. Makes for a nice E minor (open position).
My left knees change once in a while cause I like to experiment, but I've had these changes the longest of any. I think they're pretty useful.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 May 2007 7:27 am
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By the way, my LKL does the same as yours, except I lower my E to D, instead of raising the B to D.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 17 May 2007 8:55 am
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| Mike Wheeler wrote: |
| I lower my 6th, and 3rd, string G#s to G. Makes for a nice E minor (open position). |
That sounds like great idea for quick access to a Minor.....My new first choice! |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 May 2007 9:12 am
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Yeah, it is. I came from a 6 string guitar background (back in the middle ages). I've always liked having a variety of minor inversions available...instead of always playing the same common inversions...they makes chordal movements sound fresh, more interesting.
Those G# to Gs come in handy in lots of ways.
And with that MSA of yours, changing pulls is sooooo easy! My Dekley is very, very similar. I put extra bellcranks on most of the cross-shafts just to have them available if needed.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 17 May 2007 3:27 pm
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| Quote: |
| I am still hanging on to the Universl Dream for a bit longer given the various styles of music I play.... |
E9th works very well for pop, rock, blues, religious, country, and most ethnic and new world music. Unless you plan on playing a lot of jazz, classical, or swing music, I don't see the extended E9th as a deficit. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 17 May 2007 6:10 pm
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I would suggest lowering your 2nd, 4th, and 8th strings, with your RKR lever. It's easier to hold in place when you're trying to play in the "B-6th" mode.
Well, for me anyway. It's just a thought! |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 17 May 2007 6:29 pm go Uni!
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I'm with the others who say go ahead and set up for the Uni tuning. You can do just about anything you want with that set-up.
Having the B to D pull is a good start for getting used to the string arrangement.
As mentioned, you can add 3 [or 4]more pedals as you can, and just get used to their functions gradually. You don't have to use them if you're not ready, but you'll have them when you are. |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 21 May 2007 7:55 am
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Alright fellas-
Thanks for all you help...it REALLY helped me to "pull" this thing tohether!
Update: The Steel is playing great now. As I was redoing the coped I learned SO much about how this thing works and fixed alot of things that I had noticed but never really worried about (too busy learning the steel!) I adjusted the pulling train so that I have smooth and even pulls on all the strings. I also adjusted the Floor pedals to be even with the ground and have consistent pedal travel. I re adjusted the Knee levers to be nice and vertical and to fit MY legs. I also used to have problems with some pulls affecting neighboring strings. The rods where out of alighnment so they pulled slightly left or right, thereby snagging the neighboring fingers in the puller just enough to screw everything up. Once I figured out why it was happening, it was an easy fix...Just realign the Rods square to the cabinet by moving the bellcranks. I am still having an issue with strings going very slightly out of tune when I press down on my pedals...I think this is what you call cabinet drop? It may also be that the puller is moving in the cabinet...I am still working on that one!
Additions:
I have added Mikes set-up (I lower my 6th, and 3rd, string G#s to G. Makes for a nice E minor (open position).) to RKR
I added a pull on P4...It simple lowers the High F# a half step. I did this because I had learned many licks on the top 2 strings with my old copendant which included this pull.
NEXT Step.... I believe I will take John De Mailles advice. I noticed it is difficult to hold RKL in while I am "in B6". I think I will switch Mikes Pull to RKR and the "b6" pull to RKL.
Heres the Coped.....Sub-Universal
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 May 2007 8:31 am
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Gee, nice job there, Danny. I think you're setup is good, and it's ready to add the rest of the Uni pulls when you're ready.
I cut my teeth on a MSA Uni, and learned the hard way how to fix and maintain it...just as you are learning. The down side?.......I'm now an addict to tinkering with my guitar. I love playing them, but love tinkering too.
Once a year I completely disassemble it (changer and all), clean, polish, and relube everything, reassemble and tweak all the pulls. It ends up feeling like a brand new guitar...what a joy!...but then again, I'm outa-control with my steel stuff!! ha, ha! 
Have fun with that monster...you earned it.
BTW, how 'bout a pic or two, eh??
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 21 May 2007 9:12 am
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Did I mention we polished it?
_________________
Sho-Bud LDG and a lifetime of learning to do. |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 May 2007 9:21 am
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 WOW!! Beautiful guitar! (and with a pad to take naps on!! ) You must be very proud of that one, Danny. I sure would be.
I'd sure like to have a Vintage XL like that myself one day...I always thought they were so classy looking!!
Thanks for the pic.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 21 May 2007 2:02 pm
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Oops, just saw Reese's post in the other thread...it's a Classic XL. Still, it's a fine guitar I'd be proud to own.
_________________
Best regards,
Mike |
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Danny Goddard
From:
Tallahassee, Florida
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Posted 25 May 2007 1:25 pm Set-up trouble!
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Well I've got the Coped where (I think) I want it but I am having trouble with the "B" pedal. When I depress it, I am moving the 3 G#'s to A's. When it reaches the bottom of the pedal travel, the 3 G#'s are, in fact, A's, but they reach the note at different times. First the 3rd string, then the 6th and the 10th (together) This gets weird because I sometimes hit the pedal and the 3rd string is in tune but when I go to pick 6 & 10 they are out. This is happening because the pedal "feels" like it is down just before it starts to pull 6 &10. How can I adjust this so they reach the note together? I have set the pull rods all to the same height on the bell crank so they should be even, right? I have also tried to tighten up the pull rod slack in 6 & 10, but when I tune it pedals down, it goes right back where it was. Maybe some ideas...I tried some searching in the forum but I don't know what it would be called. Thanks in advance. Danny
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Sho-Bud LDG and a lifetime of learning to do. |
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