Need advice on first pedal steel

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 9:23 am

I currently play lap steel and have been thinking about getting a pedal steel for a while now.

Besides the price of a decent pedal steel, my reservations lie with a couple of other factors.

- I perform and the pedal steel seems like a pain to transport and set up.

- I would still want to play it like a lap steel at times and the string spacing of the pedal steels I have seen look difficult for the right hand.

- I've heard that some of the lower-end models have issues with strings not returning to the correct tuning. Meaning the pedals can act like a bad tremelo arm on a guitar, leading to constant tuning.

- There aren't any pedal steel dealers near me, save the high-end Sierra Steels, so I would probably have to order off of eBay without playing the instrument first.

I don't need two necks.....or at least I'm not willing to pay for the extra neck. Can anyone suggest what brand and model might be best for me to look into?

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Where are you? I only see Oregon USA in your profile.
Let us know where you are and perhaps we can set you up with someone near you.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

-yup they are heavy.
-setup isnt that big of an ordeal
-lap style playing on a psg is no problem.
-even most beginner models stay in tune well these days. not sure about older ones like the maverick.
-try buying from the forum rather than off ebay, MOST forum members are very fair and will not try to rip you off. many ebay sellers dont know anything about the steels they are selling.
-if possible find a couple psg players in your area and ask em for help in finding one suitable to your needs.

my 2 cents.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

James,They are a pain to transport and set-up...oh well that comes with the territory,As far as string spacing most pedal steels are closer together than lap steels.My suggestion that you can probably find a really good used Pro model S-10 3+4 if you are willing to wait until one shows up on the Forum,I would say the Forum is safer than EBay because most of us know each other.I just helped a friend of mine up here find a pedal steel,he is also making the change from lap steel.I've found that everything that I've ever wanted real bad took some sort of compromise or sacrifice,I haven't found too many shortcuts that work.Good Luck,Stu
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 9:52 am

I'm in Portland.

A couple of questions more:

- I don't plan on playing traditional styles. I'm into experimental and otherwise. Wil there be any issues with my current guitar amps and Pod XT Live when playing with a pedal steel?

- How are pinched harmonics on a pedal steel?

- What is the main factor for the that high whiney tone of a PSG? Is it all the metal in the construction, the scale length/string tension? The "pedal steel" amps that might be used?

The reason I ask is because I have a friend that has offered to add custom made hip-activated string benders to one of my lap steels. It would only affect two strings. However, I'm not sure if I can get the PSG tone out of a lap steel.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Chris Lucker · From: Los Angeles, California USA

Call Russ Blake over at the Twelfth Fret. He will know some one locally who can help.

Also the Online Steelers list that you can find in the "Links" above lists a half dozen steelers in the Portland Area. Others are not listed, but contacting these folks will get you started so you can get more names and talk or meet with a number of locals. I am sure you can find a guitar to try or buy locally.

Dennis Schell · From: Shingletown, Shasta county, Kalifornia

A search of "pedal steel" at YouTube will find you loads of clips. If by "high whiney sound" (?!?) you mean conventional "country" E9 tuning, you'll still find lots of C6 "jazzy" type examples. Lots of R. Randolph there too.....

I'm not sure where you're "coming from" here....
A pedal steel of any configuration is no harder to "lug around" than a mid sized 2x12 amp for example. Some of us geezers have wheels on the case...

Setup? Ummm... about 5 or 10 minutes...(including tuning)

I would think that there should be a few reasonably priced guitars for sale in a city like Portland. And SeaTac is only a couple hours drive away...(Altho' I too suggest buying your axe HERE)

Almost sounds like you want to talk yourself OUT of a PSG....

Best of luck,

Dennis

BTW, you may need "some" practice time before thinking about lugging a PSG to a gig.... Wink

_________________
"Bucks Owin"

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 11:29 am

Ben, I actually get strong pinched harmonics with fingerpicks. No problem there.

I've actually spoken to Russ at 12th fret, but not about pedal steel. He installed a sustainer in one of my lap steels.

Dennis, you might be right about me trying to talk myself out of it. The price makes me balk and I find myself trying to talk myself out of a PSG. Eventually, I will get one and right now, I have some money to spare.

The setup and weight is an issue though as my electronics(amp,effects,etc) take a while to set up on their own. Take a look at this:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=109268

Also, I play flamenco guitar and cumbus(turkish banjo) and getting all this set up currently takes at least 15, so I have to be conscious about adding more setup time.

Getting the benders added to my lap steel would mean that I could have a psuedo lap steel with none of the weight or setup issues. However, I am wary about getting that distinct "whiney" sound that I want. I'd be surprised if it's simply the tuning. I've tried every kind of tuning on lap steel and that sound hasn't popped out yet.

For example, even without the tradmark stretching chords, you can still hear that this isn't a lap steel simply by the tone.

http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/Frontera.mp3

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

James, you should come over and check out my gear. It may answer some of your questions. I sent you an email...

Wayne D. Clark · From: Montello Wisconsin, USA

James, It's the way the insterment is designed. Yes there are differences. Pickups, Sone are a little longer than others.{We are talking small amount here} the Tone, or Sustain may differ, ect The four I have owned all have had a Wood Cabinet. Some Maple, Some Oak. Only a PSG soungs like a PSG.

Desert Rose s10 3/5
Goodrich 120
Nashville 400

Wayne D. Clark · From: Montello Wisconsin, USA

James it looks like you have a good contact there in Portland so ignore my Email, Wayne Clark [Wisconsin}

Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich120
Nashville 400

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 12:27 pm

Wow, this is a hell of a forum. All these responses and emails to boot. Thanks everyone!

In the little time that I've looked today, I've found that I would have to rethink my electronics setup as my MFX units wouldn't fit under a PSG console with the space taken up by the psg pedals.

ah....head hurts.

yeah, I've seen Robert Randolph live. I'm really not into it. I was disappointed in the show as I went to hear an experimental steel player and I found that he simply played bluesy gospel music on a different instrument. He definately has chops, just sounds kinda ordinary to me. That statement will probably irritate a few of you......just as it does when I tell guitar players the same thing about Stevie Ray Vaughn.

Ms. Alcorn clip was interesting.....probably more experimental than I plan on being. Smile

I probably fit in between somewhere.

here are a few tracks that got me inspired to buy a lap steel. All of these were recorded on a Stringmaster non-pedal.

http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/05_In_the_Wire.mp3
http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/timesnotyourfriend.mp3
http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/WichitaLineman.mp3
http://funkychurch.com/images/stories/music/03Track3.mp3

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

James, with regard to space under a pedal steel, keep in mind that a single-neck guitar generally only has 3 pedals, and they're situated under the keyhead-end of the guitar. If you're not going to go the traditional route and use a volume pedal, that leaves about 2 feet of open floor space under the other end of the guitar.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 1:35 pm

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 1:37 pm

I don't have any clips of the Kaoss pad in actions. It's a new addition. It's good for making ambient noise. Very lo-fi sounding. Lot's of filters and noisemakers. The cool thing is the self-oscillating delays that you can move all over the place with that x-y pad. I also like the slicer(tremolo) combined with a low-pass filter.

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 1:39 pm

Tucker, I do use a volume pedal.....but it's part of my MFX unit. It's a two-way pedal and I use it to route, see diagram in link above.

it's at the far right of the unit. If you are around this Saturday, I think I would like to pay you a visit and maybe bring a MFX unit to try on one of your steels.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Excellent. See you then.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

thanks James I'll try that ..i knew there had to be some pinching with the thumb goin on, tho Ive managed a few with just the fingerpick glancing the string...as I said luck, sometimes I get em , most the time nothing.

SRV was a monster player and he had feel, but to me hendrix just did everything he did and more and much much better long before he came around...flame suit ON.
i also think clapton is WAY over-rated and boring....roast me!

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 1:58 pm

Ben, I completely agree. I like Clapton but I don't think he's anything special like Hendrix. SRV is a fantastic musician but I don't get the huge influence he has had. I just don't hear anything pioneering in his repertoire.

Dustin Rigsby · From: Parts Unknown, Ohio

David Doggett · Posted 16 May 2007 2:39 pm

Nothing sounds like a Stringmaster but a Stringmaster. But you can make a pedal steel sound closer to a Stringmaster by using a pickup wound to a lower impedance, like the Stringmaster pickups. Also it helps to use a lighter bar, such as a grooved Dobro style bar (I like the Shubb Pierce #2). You might look into the vintage Fender pedal steel guitars. They have low impedance pickups, and to me have a sound somewhere between a Stringmaster and a modern pedal steel. There are a number of steelers on the Forum who love the old Fender pedal steels.

I don't break my pedal steel down and reassemble it. For playing around town, I stand it up behind the back seat of my minivan. You can also remove just the back legs and lay it down in the trunk of a car, or put it in the back seat. Like you, most of my setup time is spent connecting cords to my volume pedal, effects pedals, amp head, and speaker cabs. I have my amp head sitting on my right side on the floor, and my effects boxes are on top of it. I hit the buttons with my right hand. As pointed out above, an S10 pedal steel usually only has three or four pedals, so there is some room for stomp boxes under the guitar.

Given your experimental bent, I predict you will find that a standard S10 E9 pedal steel is lacking in low strings (missing the bottom two strings of a regular 6-string guitar, and also missing the low strings on most lap steel tunings). You might want to look into an S12 extended E9. An S12 universal E9/B6 has more pedals and is more versatile than extended E9, but may be more than you want. Try an S10 E9 first, but be aware of the other options. An S12 is just as portable as an S10. D10s and SD10s (single neck on double body with a pad) are another matter.

You will find the prices and quality of used steels much better here on the Forum than on Ebay. Ebay steels are commonly in poor condition without the seller being aware of it. And uninformed buyers bid the prices up too high.

As for Robert Randolph and Stevie Ray Vaughn (I like both), screaming rock-blues is not for everyone. The only time some of us get irrate in RR's defense is when someone derisively says he just makes noise and has no skill or talent, which is clearly not the case. So far, he just plays rock-blues jam-band stuff, and does it very well. The only thing experimental is that he does it on pedal steel; and that is not really experimental in the sacred steel community - people have been doing it in that tradition for decades. He says he is inspired by Hendrix, but you don't hear much of that. Still, he is an exciting player for those of us who like rock-blues. But he is not experimental in the way the clips you posted are.

By the way, those clips are some of the best experimental steel playing I have heard. Much experimental steel music is spacey without being very musical. But those clips are some beautiful music. Smile

James Mayer · Posted 16 May 2007 2:53 pm

I didn't mean to take this off-topic.

I wrote my friend who said he could add arms to my lap steel. He managed to get nice PSG sounds when I saw him perform and I'm looking at this as an option, though I don't yet see it as a real substitute for a psg.

I'd have him modify one of these:

It would have two levers and be tuned to open E. One activated with the right knee pushing outwards to raise the second string a full step and an elbow lever to raise the third string a half-step. It would also have a stop bar that folds down and rests against the left knee to keep the instrument from sliding off my lap when the knee lever is used.

Any opinions on this craziness? I know it's not as flexible as a real 10-string psg but the mod would only be about $225. [/img]

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