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Topic: Square Necks on Resonator Guitars |
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 4 May 2007 5:53 pm |
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Disregarding Weissenborns, which use the neck as an extension of the soundchamber, I've never understood why they make square-necked instruments. With a rounded neck you have the option of removing the nutriser and playing it as a regular guitar. With a square neck that becomes impossible. I've got a plated-brass tricone with a round neck, a wooden-bodied resonator with a square neck, and an archtop acoustic/electric with a round neck. I'm skeptical as to whether the shape of the neck makes any difference whatsoever to the sound of the instrument.
But some people must have a reason for fitting square necks. Why else would Lapdancer Guitars make a square neck as a direct bolt-in replacement on a Stratocaster ?
Is the square neck just for show ? Is it to keep regular guitarists away from the instrument ? |
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Howard Parker
From:
Maryland
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Posted 4 May 2007 7:18 pm
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1. Square necks are used to withstand the tensions of open tunings.
2. Modern square necked resonator guitars accomodate much wider string spacing than their round neck counterparts. The wider spacing has become much preferred these days.
And there you have it.
_________________
Howard Parker
03\' Carter D-10
70\'s Dekley D-10
52\' Fender Custom
Many guitars by Paul Beard
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Colin Brooks
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Posted 5 May 2007 1:33 am
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| I have 2 modern single cone Nationals with square necks, a Style O and an Estralita. I have been able to compare both of these to their Spanish neck equivalents and the square necks have much more sustain, which is down to that extra mass of wood. |
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Jude Reinhardt
From:
Weaverville, NC
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Posted 5 May 2007 4:18 am
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I imagine it's the "bottom line on a ledger sheet". You don't need a truss rod in a square neck. My objection to a round neck with a nut riser is that the roundneck is joined to the body at the 14th fret. Couldn't get used to that. I think the earlier guitars were joined at the 12th fret, I'm sure Oswald's roundneck Dobro was. If someone like Gold Tone would come out with a round neck joined to the body at the twelth fret I would be very interested.
I don't think open tunings would cause more tension on a neck if the proper gauge strings for the tuning were used and string spacing is easily adusted with saddle replacement and nut riser.
More sustain on the square neck? Both guitars would have to be set up the same, same strings, same cone tension, played in the same environment by the same player and listened to by a number of listeners. What my ears perceive may be different than yours. I doubt if anyone will or is able to set up a proper A/B test between the two. Just my opinion on a Saturday morning. It may change by Monday. 
Jude
_________________
"If we live in fear of banjos, then the banjos have won".
"Man cannot live by bread alone, he must have Peanut Butter". - Kruger Bear |
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Jim Bates
From:
Alvin, Texas, USA
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Posted 5 May 2007 4:33 am
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Brother Oswald played a round neck Dobro tuned to A; don't know what strings and gauges he used.
It is all in the sound of the 'box' and the neck combination. I have seen both round and square necks bowed and separated from the body due to too heavy strings and worst of all - leaving them in a hot car.
I have a metal body Dobro model 36, round neck with an extension nut on it and tuned to F (down 2 frets from G) and using the J42 D-Addario strings. Have not seen any bowing or neck distortion, so far.
A lot of the sustain also comes from what type bar you are using. The most sustain and bass will be from the heavier pedal steel bars. The Shubb-Pearse, my favorite, is a little lighter, and a little less on sustain.
Yes, the square neck can give a little more sustain, and more nut width options. (Any of you remember some guys were trying c-clamps on the headstock trying to get more sustian!)
Thanx,
Jim |
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Jude Reinhardt
From:
Weaverville, NC
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Posted 5 May 2007 5:35 am Oswald tuning and string gauges
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>quote< Brother Oswald played a round neck Dobro tuned to A; don't know what strings and gauges he used.
Brother Oswald used the old method of high tension treble and low tension bass strings for his Amajor tuning, AC#EAC#E low to high. The string gauges are
.042, .042, .032, .022, .018, .018. I've tried these and didn't like the tone when tuned to Amajor but surprisingly they sounded good to my ears when tuned to the standard dobro tuning of GBDGBD. I think my ears were trained to hearing me play Wabash Cannonball in G instead of A. I may have to make up a set of JagWires and try it again. Of course I'll need a round neck joined at the twelth fret. I feel DAS coming on.
Jude
_________________
"If we live in fear of banjos, then the banjos have won".
"Man cannot live by bread alone, he must have Peanut Butter". - Kruger Bear |
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Robert Leaman
From:
Murphy, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 May 2007 5:51 am Square Vs Round
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I have a 1974 square neck Model 36 metal body OMI Dobro. There are 14 frets to the body. I use standard gauge guitar strings and tune to open G-major. My guitar has far more sustain and power when tuned down to G-major than tuned to A-major. Most banjo players (non-musicians) prefer to play in G-major and fiddlers in A-major. If the tune is in A-major, I capo at the second fret. Second fret capo provides an open A-major guitar with all the sustain since string (and cone pressure) is not changed. I play standing with a custom strap joined at the patent head. Years ago, I used a round neck Dobro with an extension nut and the added tension from a neck strap caused severe detuning (called cabinet drop today.). My square neck does not have this problem. Why is there a difference? There is no accounting for style and/or taste.
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John Bushouse
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Posted 5 May 2007 6:38 am
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| I was talking Bob Tripp, a dobro player here in Kansas City, after a show last week. He replaced his 14-fret roundneck with a 12-fret squareneck, precisely because of detuning problems when playing standing up (is that cabinet drop?). |
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George Rout
From:
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 5 May 2007 7:52 am Tension on resonator necks
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I can tell you that you don't want to buy a cheapie round-neck resonator and then tune it to open A with heavy gauge strings. I've see a few that started pulling the neck away from the body.
I'm a heavy guage string player, I cannot stand bouncy/springy top strings. You have to constrain your playing to accomodate that. Even my 11 year old grandson Dobro player prefers heavier strings to eliminate the bounce, but that's maybe because of his grandad's teaching!!!!
He has a round neck (tuned to open G). He can readily switch between his and my square neck Dobro, or the lap steel without any thought. I'm amazed at him. I don't find it a big problem, I had an Alcivar round neck for a number of years, and you get used to switching from the longer/shorter necks.
Geo |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 5 May 2007 12:59 pm
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Here's a comparison of the instruments I'm working with...
Of these, only the wooden-boded instrument has a squared neck. I've put the same nut riser on each of the round-neck models, so the string spacing is the same. On the semi-solid model the strings actually overlap the neck slightly.
It's difficult for me to decide how much of the difference in sound comes from the different types of instrument, and how much comes from the neck. I can't afford to have two examples of each !
I built this one with a squared neck...
When I built this one it wasn't an issue... 
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Russ Cudney
From:
Sonoma, California, USA
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Posted 10 May 2007 7:42 pm
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| Jim Bates wrote: |
Brother Oswald played a round neck Dobro tuned to A; don't know what strings and gauges he used.
It is all in the sound of the 'box' and the neck combination. I have seen both round and square necks bowed and separated from the body due to too heavy strings and worst of all - leaving them in a hot car.
I have a metal body Dobro model 36, round neck with an extension nut on it and tuned to F (down 2 frets from G) and using the J42 D-Addario strings. Have not seen any bowing or neck distortion, so far.
A lot of the sustain also comes from what type bar you are using. The most sustain and bass will be from the heavier pedal steel bars. The Shubb-Pearse, my favorite, is a little lighter, and a little less on sustain.
Yes, the square neck can give a little more sustain, and more nut width options. (Any of you remember some guys were trying c-clamps on the headstock trying to get more sustian!)
Thanx,
Jim |
i have yet to put a nut raiser on my ron phillips, but i use heavy gauges with open tunings, and the round neck seems fine.
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 11 May 2007 4:14 am
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It's not the open tuning that requires the extra mass of a square neck, it's the fact that the raised strings put additional tension on the neck and neck joint itself.
Lots of round neck guitars are played with open tunings, but the low action puts much less stress on the wood. Not so with raised strings.
I don't think "the bottom line" has any part of the decision to use a square neck. It's a design decision.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Gary Lynch
From:
Creston, California, USA
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Posted 11 May 2007 5:34 am
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| Mass in the neck provides stability and sustain. The newer custom guitars have the string height and spacing that has become popular. And, as pointed out, a neck with mass stays in tune better when the stress of a strap and down pressure from playing while standing is added. |
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Michael Haselman
From:
St. Paul
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Posted 11 May 2007 9:10 am
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Call me naive, as a new reso player, but some (like me) have no interest in playing any way other than as lap style with solid metal bar. I would have no use for a round neck with option to play as a normal guitar.
_________________
Mullen RP D10, Peavey NV112, Hilton volume. Hound Dog reso. Piles of other stuff. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 11 May 2007 10:41 am
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| A square-neck doesn't slide of my lap as easily! |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 13 May 2007 10:13 am
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| John Billings wrote: |
| A square-neck doesn't slide off my lap as easily! |
You should try playing the lute !
But seriously, I'm not convinced that the tension on the strings is the reason for using square necks. Yes, some guitars warp, but it's usually because they're not built properly. I have eight 12-string guitars, and they all carry much more tension than any 6-string, but I haven't noticed any neck warping on any of them. I'm a luthier, and I build mediaeval instruments. I've built many instruments with multiple courses, and as many as 50 strings. To me, 6 strings is light construction.
I've also seen warped 6-strings that have been adapted for playing with a tone bar because it's impossible to press the strings against the frets. Ironically, the worst that could happen with a resonator guitar with a round neck is that it became unplayable without a tone bar, which is the position you would be in if you bought a square-backed instrument. Someone once handed me a mandoline which was so warped that there was about 3/4" gap between the strings and the fingerboard at the 12th fret. I tuned it open and played it with a tone-bar, and got some unique sounds out of it.
The suggestion that the tone is influenced by the solidity or weight of the squared-neck has more merit. Certainly on instruments where the body cavity is extended into the neck, whether it be a resonator or a Weissenborn, that makes a big difference to the sound.
Again, without having identical instruments where only the neck varies, it's difficult to determine whether there is any difference in the sound.
Does anyone out there have two identical instruments, one round-neck, and the other square-neck ? And if they do, is there an appreciable diffence in the sound ? |
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Darrell Urbien
From:
Echo Park, California
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Posted 13 May 2007 10:22 am
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Perhaps because they are just easier to build? If you don't need the round neck because you're playing with a bar, then maybe they figured why bother going through the hassle of shaping it? It would save a lot of time in those pre-CNC days.
Many people think Weissenborn and Knutsen (and others) experimented with "teardrop" designs simply because they were easier to build - no "waist" bend to make (the waist not being needed in an instrument that was not rested on a thigh). |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 13 May 2007 10:46 am
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| Darrell Urbien wrote: |
| Many people think Weissenborn and Knutsen (and others) experimented with "teardrop" designs simply because they were easier to build - no "waist" bend to make (the waist not being needed in an instrument that was not rested on a thigh). |
I think it's more likely that the teardrop shape of a Weissenborn goes back to the teardrop shape of the plucked dulcimer. One of the theories of the origin of the steel guitar (see "Steel Guitarist" magazine) is that it came from the dulcimer played with a bar. Board zithers, of which the plucked dulcimer is one, are the only string instruments other than the Hawaiian guitar which are fingered from above.
Last edited by Alan Brookes on 15 May 2007 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Drew Howard
From:
48854
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 15 May 2007 1:23 pm
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| Drew Howard wrote: |
| Love the model trains !!... |
Yes, they run all round my den, which is two rooms and a crawlspace underneath the house. That same room gets used for a workshop, a music room, and a train room. |
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Brendan Mitchell
From:
Melbourne Australia
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Posted 30 May 2007 2:44 am
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| It keeps guitar people from picking it up and having a strum . |
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Rick Jolley
From:
Colorado Springs
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Posted 4 Jun 2007 9:15 am
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The question for me was "Are you serious?"
i.e. are you going to learn to play the Dobro, or are you going to fall back on the damn licks and stuff you've been playing for 50 years?
My square neck says "This dude's serious about the Dobro."
Either a) Hang it on the wall
b) Play it (practice, practice, practice) or
c) Use it to beat your wife to death because she can't stand the sound of it.
fortunately, my wife is long gone, so I can play all I want. Even the cats like it, which is something I can't say for the banjo!!
Rick |
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Orville Johnson
From:
Seattle, Washington, USA
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Posted 4 Jun 2007 10:34 am
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| having played many round and square neck guitars, my experience tells me that the added mass of the squareneck adds sustain and fullness to the tone. I don't know whether the string tension is that big a deal but using the gauge strings i'm used to on a squareneck (16-56, sometimes 59) would seem to me to be tough on a skinnier neck. i'm quite certain that it is a design decision and not an economic one. |
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A. Roncetti
From:
Toronto,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 8:04 am
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Maybe it's just me but I can't see my self playing a roundneck very well on my lap.And there's no need for a trussrod  |
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Gary Lynch
From:
Creston, California, USA
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Posted 11 Jun 2007 8:47 am
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Marc at "Marc Schoenberger's National Guitar Repair"
http://www.nationalguitarrepair.com/
lives close by so to speak. When I was over at his shop getting a reset on a 1970's Dobro, I noticed that the round neck Nationals that were played with a heavier gauge string for slide over the decades are all in need of a reset. However the square neck tircones, not so much. |
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