Pre-Amp Questions

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

I got started in home recording a few months ago. Though I am quite familiar with live sound applications, I’m finding the learning curve for recording to be steep. I’ve done studio sessions, but never on this side of the controls. I have a few specific questions, and I apologize in advance if this has been covered here before. I looked through the archives, but didn’t find exactly what I was looking for.

My setup is pretty modest… a Zoom MRS-802B DAW, Yamaha MSP3 powered monitors, AKG condenser mikes, various effect processors and some other stuff. I do not have a pre-amp. Through my limited experience so far, I can easily see why one is needed. I do have a Behringer 12 channel mixer and a BBE sonic maximizer, both of which I have not yet attempted to integrate into my recording set up. I intend to try the mixer on my next session and compare the results with mics straight into the DAW. I expect better results, but I’m thinking I still won’t be satisfied.

My first question is how much $$$ would I have to spend on a pre-amp to improve upon the Behringer mixer? I realize it’s not the greatest. I’m not sure the sonic maximizer is good for anything… it seems to thicken up the signal, but it also introduces noise. I started looking at pre-amps and realized that I could easily spend more on one than my entire set up is worth. My DAW only records two channels simultaneously plus I like to record my fiddle in stereo, so I need a 2 channel preamp. I would also use it for voice and steel. Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced pre-amp that would meet my needs? And what is the conventional thinking on new vs. used?

Thanks in advance for any advice. And please don’t hesitate to answer the question(s) I should have asked, but didn’t.

Cheers,
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Johnny Thomasson

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Here's a very good affordable one:

http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm

Or this:

http://www.mercenary.com/grtubr.html

Or:

http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/products/preamps/mpx4/

Or:

http://www.mercenary.com/toaudeafdumi.html

Or:

http://www.mercenary.com/ear824dualmi.html Wink

Personally, I think a good mic preamp is critical in making the leap from amateur sounding recordings to extremely pro sounding stuff. Converters are important too, but nothing breathes that kind of life into a mic like a good preamp. It's astounding to those who hear the difference for the first time.

Brad

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Brad,

Thanks for the info. From the links you posted, would I be correct to assume that in your opinion I might as well use the cheap Behringer mixer until I can afford a $500 preamp? Would it be worthwhile to buy something like this:

http://www.music123.com/M-Audio-DMP3-Mic-Preamp-i85135.music

in the meantime, or just a waste of money (like the sonic maximizer)?

Thanks,
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Johnny Thomasson

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

In my opinion, you pretty much get what you pay for. The DMP3 might be a small step up from the Behr, but not enough to justify spending money that you could save for something better down the road.

For all the criticism Behringer gets, I have to say that some of their stuff isn't all that bad. Their small mixers, in particular, sound decent, and are a good value for the money. Nevertheless, when you step up to a quality microphone preamp, you will be amazed at the difference.

Another affordable preamp to consider is a Symmetrix SX302, or better yet, an SX202 (now discontinued). Used SX202's usually go for around $150 on Ebay, and you'd be hard pressed to find something that sounds nicer for that kind of money.

Randy Reeves · From: LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA

get on ebay. I scored a lightly used Peavey 500 for less than 150$.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Johnny.

It really does seem that way. To get into a "real" mic preamp, it seems to cost a bit more than the many fake mic preamps out there today. By fake, I mean that they are very cheap, opamp based preamp circuits using cheap aluminum electrolytic coupling cap's and other components that are barely better than what you have in the cheap mixer itself. Even the many cheap "tube" mic preamps aren't really tube mic preamps. They are also cheap opamp preamps with a side-chained "tube" circuit to add tube distortion to the signal. It's all marketing, and personally I find it offensive to mislead the customer as so many of them do. A "real" mic preamp will have at the very least, precision matched discrete transistors at the input, or even better in my opinion, a good audio transformer. Then a good power supply to run the thing. To do it right, it simply costs money. The best deal I've really seen would be something like the 7th Circle audio kits. But those are kits and they require the "lunchbox" power supply. Once you have the lunchbox, the individual modules are pretty reasonably priced, well under $500 per channel. So there are options out there. There's just no comparison between a crappy mic preamp and a "real" mic preamp. It's pretty astounding to hear what good pre's can do for a recording.

Some of my personal favorite mic preamps are these, and in no particular order of preference:

Neve or Vintech Neve reissues
Manley Tube mic preamp
John Hardy
API
Telefunken V72 or V76
Peavey VMP-2
Sytek
Chandler Ltd.
Milennia Media

Brad

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Thanks, guys. All very helpful information. Since I'm only getting my feet wet in home recording and have never owned or used a preamp, it's hard to know the "real" difference between a $150 vs. $500 vs. $5000 preamp. With electronics, sometimes an exponential price jump will yield only a small increment of improvement. From the replies above, it sounds like the lower end stuff is going to fall way short of my minimum requirement.

I agree that the Behringer mixer I have isn't bad at all. I didn't buy it as a sub for a preamp for recording purposes. I found myself in need of a mixer a couple of times a year, and it has performed well... it's compact, quiet, and set me back less than $200. I have a friend who has some of their speaker enclosures that sound pretty thin, tho'.

Another question, I never ran across anyone who used a mic preamp in a live application. Why? It seems like the same benefit would be realized live as in the studio.

I'll definitely be looking on Ebay. Gearheads are constantly upgrading, so that sounds like the best way to get the most for my money. If anyone has a decent 2 channel "real" preamp they want to unload, shoot me an email.

Thanks again to all who responded.

Johnny
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Johnny Thomasson

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

FWIW

Brad knows.

I have good results with a dbx 386. It costs around $500 and has 2 channels.
We often use high end pre's on the most important vocal mic's. Not every mic needs an outboard pre, if you have really good pre's in the board. Most consumer stuff does not have the quality pre's.

Somewhere around $500 per channel is in the ballpark for quality mic pre's. If you have an 8 channel recorder/mixer/efx/hard drive it would need to be in the $4000 range to match the sound.

Just one man's opinion that comes from experience.

Robby Springfield · From: Viola, AR, USA

Just tell your wife all the guys on the forum said it's OK...get a good one! LOL
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Robby
www.power3productions.com

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

I'm using the ADL 600. It lists for $2295 and is a very very nice tube pre.
http://www.presonus.com/adl600.html
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Steve Stallings
Emmons Legrande II 8X5

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

Oh yeah... definitely pick up that new Rains Wink

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Steve Stallings
Emmons Legrande II 8X5

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I used a Symetrix SX202 for years, still in use.
Recorded everything from Blugrass
using $50,000+ of classic instruments,
to full symphonies with 100 players and 450 voices;
Caramina Burana.

Not my favorite pre-amp, but I got many many compliments
on my recordings with it into a PCM7030 DAT machine.
Or my now deceased Porta DAT.
Of course great mics, Crown PCM's, Senn. 441's,
Earthworks SR-71's etc, and good mic technique was
the main reason for the good responces.

Still that preamp did the job fine.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

Yeah, I view the Symetrix as sort of a mid-point between the mixer-grade pres and the really high end preamps. It's clean, quiet, transparent, and doesn't really impart much sonic character of it's own. It's a small, no-frills, 2-channel half rack unit, and it doesn't weigh much, which makes it nice to stuff in a bag for a portable setup. The SX202 is a great value as a used unit, if you can find one.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Steve Stallings · From: Houston/Cypress, Texas

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

That's why I am building a room here my way.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

I think "color" or "character" can be a desirable quality. That's why some preamps that sound "bigger than life", or have some other percieved enhancement are sought after. That's what I like about my Hamptone, the way it has a sound of it's own. Any preamp that uses an input transformer is going to color the sound. Good transformers color the sound in a good way. It's just harmonic distortion, really, but it sounds good to our ears.

That said, If I had only one good preamp, it would be a transparent one, not a "colored" one.

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Wow! Tons of great info here, thanks to all. Let me clarify my intended use. I played fiddle for 33 years, and PSG for only 3, or coming up on 3. By comparison, steel, 6 string, bass, keyboard, etc., are a breeze to record, or to get a great tone in a live situation for that matter. Fiddle is different. I struggled for years to get a "true" fiddle sound in an "amplified" application, and never got what I consider to be an authentic sound. And neither have the "high-powered" fiddle players that I've heard, IMHO. It's not offensive, but it sounds more like some kind of horn to me.

I do hear "that sound" on pro recordings, tho. I'm sure they are using the megabuck stuff in the first class studios, but I could be really happy just coming fairly close. Since fiddle is so much like the human voice, I thought it would be better to approach recording it like vocals rather than an instrument. Thus the preamp idea. As for transparent or colored, I'd have to guess transparent, but I really don't know for sure.

Since my original post, I tried using the Behr mixer to interface the mics with the DAW. Much improvement; tho' I'm still not getting the sound that's coming out of the fiddle onto the track. At least it's not overattenuated and distorted like before. I have some really nice fiddles, but their unique character just ain't making the trip to the disk.

I'm convinced a good pre is the solution, but I'm going to have to find a killer deal... I'm still getting "that look" for the initial investment on the recording set up. Hey, it's not an expensive hobby, it's a cheap mid-life crisis! Well, cheaper than a corvette and a young girl friend anyway... Wink

. You guys have given me some great advice on what to look for as a first step. I really appreciate it, because I certainly can't go through half a dozen boxes looking for the right one.

Thanks again,
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Johnny Thomasson

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

What microphone are you using to record your fiddle?

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

Jerry Gleason · From: Eugene, Oregon, USA

It does sound like your mic pres are the weak link, at least in the elecronic chain. In that miking scenario, the room deserves at least as much consideration, as well as mic placement. Maybe someone with more experience recording fiddle can comment further.

Edited to say: As far as the AKG mics, you didn't say which ones they are, but if you're recording with a C1000 and a C3000B, you might want to at least try some different mics. I have used both of those mics and always had trouble getting a pleasing sound on anything.

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

AKG Perception 100 / 150. I've been experimenting since my original posting. There's still no doubt I need a decent pre and eventually better mics, but I'm trying to get the most out of what I've got so I can see where I need to go from there.

I also have a ADK small diaphram condensor mic (don't know the model #). Although it's a less expensive mic than the Perception 150, it seems to work better for this purpose than either of the AKGs. I also gave up on stereo recording. It seemed like a good idea in order to get both direct and reflected sound like when you hear it live, but there seem to be too many variables that I can't control. Like the room... it's better that the National Guard Armory in Mineral Wells, TX, but not optimal either. And phase cancellation, maybe.

So far my best result has been from mic'ing with the single ADK about 45 deg off axis positioned above the 12th "fret", about 5-6 inches back from the sound holes. I don't like to record dry, but not dripping wet either. I think I've almost optimized the mic placement for what I've got now, or at the very least I'm getting close. Now I need to see what I can do with EQ and effects settings.

I'm convinced that I'm going to have to get a decent pre and a grade or two better mic before I'll be really satisfied. But it's much better than my initial attempts.

Thanks again to everyone for the info and advice.
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Johnny Thomasson

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

Johnny Thomasson · From: Texas, USA

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