Which lever change do you prefer?? B to Bb or G# to F#?

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

OK!

I've ordered a Blackjack from Jackson, and I have been scouring the forum for copedant ideas. I currently play a Carter Starter, and use the B to Bb change (5 string) on RKL occasionally. Mainly, I use it for a sweep from the E up to the F over a Bbmaj7#4 chord (no pedals, fret 6, strings 2,3,4,5).

My proposed copendant is: Emmons pedal setup. Raise E's on LKL, lower on RKL. RKR lower 2 (Eb to D and C#) and 9 (D to C#). LKR is up for grabs...

My question: Would I benefit more from a G# to F# change on strings 3 and 6 more than the B to Bb change on 5? I'm not really interested in a vertical lever at this time.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Marc

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I always order a vertical lever on a new guitar. Even if you have no use for it now. You never know what the future will bring. Very Happy

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The B lower is typically put on LKV. You should seriously consider adding a vertical lever to your order.

The idea of having 5 knee levers is quite sound, in my opinion. Each lever uses a specific and unique body movement, making it easy to separate them in your mind.

Since you are already learning the B lower lever on your Carter Starter, you should not abandon it. It is even more useful on a pro guitar with tunable splits because it can give you the C note when combined with the first pedal.

The B lower gives you a necessary scale note in the IV fret position, and it gives you a II7 chord at the I fret. It's extremely useful.
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Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Marc-

String 5 is a B, string 8 is an E. You are suggesting a G#-F# --- do you mean on string 6?

-dean-

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Yike!

A touch dyslexic this morning!

Dean, you are right. Editing the above post...

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Marc, now that you've gotten your post straightened out Smile

...

These are always matters of opinion, personal taste, playing style (actual and/or desired), etc.

My opinion is that the G# to F# change on strings 3 & 6 you propose (one question: is the guitar capable of lowering string 3 that far? A lot of guitars aren't.) would be more useful than the Bb lower--provided you have a feel stop for G, or if you have tuneable splits to give G when the lever and the B pedal are used together. The Bb lower is a useful change, too, but I personally find more uses for the lowered notes on 3 & 6. (My guitars are older and won't make F# on 3, so I have to make do with one lever that takes 3 & 6 to G and another that takes 6 to F#. Actually, I like it like that, but I'm crazy enough to not mind lots of knee levers!)

Why not have both? Very Happy

Dean Parks · From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

Also, the chord at fret 6 would be Bb7#4, not maj7, right? (the D string is an Ab up there).

If I had to choose, I'd choose the G#-F# on 6, for most of what I do on steel, especially because you can split that with the A pedal, and get a G natural on str6, so, two changes in one... but as b0b says, you don't have to choose, if you put Bb on a vertical. Get both.

edit- Wow, I just noticed your edit, which proposes moving 3 to F# also... I've never seen it done... G# string can't take it, lots of breakage.

But often these days, on the 6G#-F# lever, there is also a string one F# to G#... same move when you need it.

-dean-

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Marc,

the B-Bb change is a little newer for me so perhaps that's why I don't use it as much. I use the G#-F# on string 6 extensively, bith as a stand alone and in combination with other changes (including the tuned split with the B pedal raising 6 to A).

Dan
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Brandon Ordoyne · From: Needville,Texas USA

My B to Bb is also on my RKL or what I call the "X". I like it there as opposed to a vertical lever. I can control the travel much smoother. I have tried it on a vertical lever but didnt feel comfortable with it. Its especially good for "Together Again", hence the name "the Brumley Change" Very Happy

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Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

Oops, let me say this different. I lower 1,2 and 6 with my RKR.

C. Christofferson · Posted 25 Apr 2007 1:46 pm

It doesn't seem fully practical to me to have the E raises on one knee (L) and the E lowers on the other knee (R), because if you engage them both at the same time you get no useful change, therefore you have one 'wasted' or one less possible combination available overall, whereas if they are both on either side of the one knee (since you're only going to use one at a time anyway), you then have another lever combination 'open' to set up another change. Maybe i'm missing something here though.

My site

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Chris,

It's a little off topic here, but having the E lowers on the right knee can be seen (is, by me) as having two advantages:

1) You can move smoothly from E raises to E lowers or vice versa in one fluid bend, with no "hitch" or bump on the way, by pressing one while releasing the other--which is useful for the bend up to and/or down from the third of the chord when you're in the A + F position, the equivalent of A pedal moves in the pedals down position;

2) If you have three, four, or five knee levers on the left knee, you can combine the E lowers with all of them, while if E lowers are on the left knee, you can only combine it with two. (Or maybe three, if you're lucky and hitting LKR and LKV together is possible without a dicey contortion.)

KENNY KRUPNICK · From: Columbus, Ohio

Both!

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Between the two choices mentioned, the alternative of having B-Bb on LKR is not the best since you would want to go smoothly from raised E's (LKL) to lowered Bb (LKR) = conflict of interest

The alternative with lowering 6th string G# to F# (not the 3rd string because you will want that G# note on top for certain voicings) with the optional raise F#-G# on string 1 and further the optinonal D#-E on string 2. This lever don't have any conflict regarding the E's-F on LKL in my opinion.

Bengt Erik

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

At one point I had both the B to Bb(A#)and the G# to F# levers but that was when I still had my old ShoBud. On my current BMI I have only the B to Bb lever. Personally (and I know others will disagree) to me the G# to F# lever is mainly a "lick" lever as opposed to being used for chord work. I realize that you could use your B pedal for a split to G but that's not for me. I use my "B" lever just about as much as the others. I have it on my LKV and actually use it a lot by itself. On my old ShoBud I had it on the LKL and I really miss it being there but I have another use for that one now. I play an S-12 and another use for it that I don't hear mentioned much is when you use the "F" knee lever and pedal A to get the VI chord, the flatted B string would be a sixth instead of a dom. 7. I do this quite a bit as my 9th string is tuned to C# so I already have the C# root there. Then there's always the "Brumley" thing in Together Again. Especially if you're in the key of C which I've had to play it in a bunch, you can do that three note "walk down" on string 5 without moving the bar. If you didn't have it you'd have to go to the "open" strings with the F knee lever and lose your ability to add vibrato to it!......JH in Va.
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

B to Bb.

I believe (without ever having had a G# to F# lower on my guitar) that there is little or nothing that this change can accomplish that cannot also be done by using other pedals and knee leves combined with bar movements. The B to Bb lever yields chord positions that cannot be achieved any other way.
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John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

Wow, I could not imagine not having the 6th string lower to F#--a very fundamental part of my playing. Not at all a "lick lever" for me (no disrespect meant, Jerry:))...
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Tim Bridges · From: Hoover, Alabama, USA

You might consider adding the LKV for the B>Bb change suggested by b0b. I like raising string 1 a full tone and string 2 a half tone. I also use the same pull to raise string 7 F#>G#. Makes for some really nice riffs and chords. IF you use a pedal (pedal 4 in either 0, or 4 position) and lower 5,6 &10 a whole tone you will need the E>Eb lower accessible. It's hard to do that with two KL changes. Seems fairly common these days. Alot of people split the 5,6&10 lower by putting the 6 lower on a separate KL.

You can't have it all. Pick a copedant and stay with it. I think if you'll look at Buck Reid's copedant, you'll have everything you need and more. After this point, it's seat time and practice.

Bernie Straub · From: Folly Beach, South Carolina, USA

Great discussion gang. Just wondering, what's wrong with a "lick lever"? That's how I use G# - F# and I wish I had a dozen more.

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

My choice would be Keep the B to Bb. A couple of things I like about it is that it gives you another option for a 7th chord, and with A&B pedals down you convert a major to a minor very smoothly.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

With the 6th G# string lowering to F# adding the E's lowering to Eb will give you a 5 chord,if you go between the A+B pedals playing the 4 chord,and then using the lever that lowers the 6 to F#,and the E's down to Eb it works for a few Sneaky Pete things...White Line Fever"Burritos Version"
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The knee lever that lowers the 6th string a full tone, with a 1/2 tone split with the B pedal, is my second most used knee lever (the most used is the lever that lowers the E's a half tone).

I also lower strings 5 and 10 with a knee lever, left knee vertical. This too has a 1/2 tone split with the A pedal. I don't use this one as much as the 6th string lower but I do use it a lot for the minor (AB pedal down and knee lever activated for the half tone lower)

Marc Jenkins · From: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Wow, lots of great ideas and information here.

I was starting to consider a vertical lever after all this, but Dawn at Jackson just informed me that they are not offering that on the Blackjack. So, I need to decide!

Thanks for all the input, looking forward to more!

Marc

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I tend to think of whole-step changes as more "country" than half-step changes. There are exceptions of course (like the root to b7 change), but in general country music seems more accepting of full-step changes than other styles.

I don't lower my 6th string to F#, but I do have a 7th string raise F# to G#, which is similar. I find that I use it a lot in country songs, but rarely in other kinds of music.

I use the 5th string half-step lower in any kind of music. It's more of a "generic" change, in my opinion, because it's used to get a note that I wouldn't have otherwise. With the F# to G#, both notes are already available - it's strictly used for transitions. The B lower expands the vocabulary of notes available at each fret.

If you plan to use the 6th string lower with a split, then you do get an additional note (the G). I have two other ways of getting the G note, though - an F# to G raise and a G# to G lower. Both seem simpler to me than setting up a split.
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Jim Eaton · From: Santa Susana, Ca

Don't think you can get a VKL on the Blackjack model.
Website say's 2 are standard and you can add 2 more, nonthing about a vertical being available. I played the Blackjack model at Perl-Jam last sunday and was very impressed with the sound, quality and price.
JE:-)>

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