Peaceful coexistence: steel and guitar

Joe Buczek · From: Montana, USA

Can anyone offer any good tips for playing so that pedal steel and lead guitar peacefully coexist in a band mix? I'm sure with another 20 years or so of playing steel, I'll have a better idea of how to play "around" the other players. Very Happy

In the band I play in, we already work up arrangements and I have enough experience playing to know and understand this approach. But I'm looking for general insights that will work in less practiced situations, e.g., playing low while the lead guitar is playing high, and vice versa. Advice for playing behind the lead guitar and/or vocalists would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!
_________________
Joe Buczek
"My other steel is a dobro."
Williams S-10, Nashville 112

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Add two low strings to your E9th. Then when the guitarist takes the fills or a solo, you can pick up the rhythm parts underneath him. The ability to trade parts with a lead guitarist is a valuable skill worth learning.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Fred Glave · From: McHenry, Illinois, USA

Sometimes spending some extra time with just you and the guitarist can be very productive. The two of you should work together to devise a system for sharing and taking turns. Not only can you figure out how to keep from stepping on each others toes, but you can create some pretty nice arrangements and duet parts that may set you apart from other bands. It's a give and take situation. On the fly, you have to just back off when the 6 stringer takes off. Hope he'll do the same for you. Some players have good eye contact and gesture a hand-off for a solo with the other members. A good leader will direct the players for instrumentals and so forth.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Learn to take your hands off the steel and keep them at your side for 50% of the song. Split your leads between the guitarist and you. Play mostly in the second verse and chorus.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I think whats being said here is that it is the MUSICIANS not the Instruments.

It really requires a very simliar mindset and approach, which is very rare. Make that VERY rare.

I am very fortunate to work with a very able young player, Matt Cook, we think and play 6 string similar and we like the exact same tunes.. He also is a lover of Steel..

Kevin mentions something above which I started doing after I saw John Hughey do it, sometimes I pu the bar down and just sit and listen. At first it was hard to do but heck, if John Hughey can do it, it must be a good thing to do !

Also what b0b says, play off the 10 and 8 strings for some underneath tones at a low volume.

It's a relationship, both players need to wanna do it or it ain't gonna work.

Generally if I am thinking we may step on each other I back off..I have played in bands where I have backed off and the Guitar player went pedal to the metal..he took advantage of it...being a Guitar player as well, I chuckled to myself and sais " Axxhxxx" oopps.....this is a family forum..I can't say that here..

If you can believe this I have also played gigs where the Guitar player played overdriven slide fills behind Steel solos...that didn't last long...

It alwasy comes back to the individual players.

t

Dick Wood · From: Springtown Texas, USA

Simply tell him that I'll take this ride you take that ride etc. If you're working up a song that has fiddle or piano and you don't have those instruments then you and the guitar player decide who will fill those parts.

It has always worked in whatever band I've worked with. If you work it out in advance there should be no problems later.

Chuck Thompson · From: Illinois, USA

I play in a 6 pc band, mostly classic country with drms, bass, acoustic rhythm, ld guitar, keybds, and i also play lead and hack about 2/3-1/2 the night on pedal steel. we have a loose framework that we play around in. intros are almost always predetermined - we make sure any signature licks and breaks in a song are there and from there we just rotate fills by vss and chorus's - for generic breaks, one of us takes half of a vs or chorus and another will take the other half - these are usually decided on the fly with a look and a nod or vocal cue - working out harmony parts to play along with the other guitar player is fun too - for fill behind another lead instrument i sometimes pad chords on steel, sometimes i play faux tic/tac bass on guitar or play rhythmic figures - also i use the often overlooked technique of not playing at all - with practice and discipline, instruments can get good at not playing ;^)

Bryan Rankins · From: Missouri, USA

Pick yourself up a copy of Merle Haggard's "The Bottle Let Me Down". And then let your guitar player hear it. Then just decide to play as a team and everybody wins. A perfect example of how a pedal steel and tele should sound together.
_________________
09'Rittenberry SD10 (3&5),Thomas D-10 (8&4), Sarno Preamp, BJS bars, Hilton Volume Pedals, Boulet Boots, Walker Seats.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Wire your volume pedal to HIS amplifier... Laughing

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Playing with a guitarist who nows how to interact is a joy. But all too often the the guitarist hogs all the fills and rides, and if you suggest that they be shared, they act like you're asking them to cut off a body part.

I was once told by one of these guys that "Look I don't know what that thing does but I play LEAD guitar, That means I play all the leads."

Our fellow forumite Mike Johnstone tells of a time when he played with one of these jerks, and somebody called out a request for Steel Guitar Rag, and the guitarist played the whole song from start to finish, and didn't give Michael a ride.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

James Cann · From: Phoenix, AZ

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Swanton, Ohio

Looking at it from the lead players side of it,it works the other way too.I have only run into 2 steel players that wanted to play all the time,but it was a mess.[I corrected the problem by finding somewhere else to be.]No amount of talking worked.But the fun of working with a pro that was interested in making the overall sound sound the way it should, was one of the main reasons why I started learning steel.Just one weekend with Mr.Jess Hurt on steel was a great lesson in the proper way to work with another lead insturment.
So I guess what it boils down to is both partys agree beforehand on who plays/when,and if you can't reach an agreement one party moves on.Gotta be fun,sure as hell ain't no money in it.
PJ

Marlin Smoot · From: Kansas

I play pedal steel and lead 'country' guitar but on the just 'steel' guitar jobs where there is a lead guitar player, I could never understand the guy playing all the way through the steel parts. Several times I've had to ask the guitar player to back off and give me some room.

Sometimes they get the message and sometimes you just gotta let them play the whole night. I get paid either way.

Taking turns is really the best way but you have to keep looking around to see who is going to play when, if you've never had a practice session with them.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

There used to be a 6 piece band around here (they may still be around, but I'm not sure) with 4 lead players. lead guitar, steel/banjo/sax, keyboards, and fiddle/mandolin/2nd lead guitar.

These guys made written outlines of every tune, saying which player (sometimes players playing in harmony) would play which fill, which ride or part of the ride etc. Everybody knew when it was their turn to play, and when it was not. They sounded great, and none of the lead players ever stepped on any of the others.

This is the way musicians SHOULD interact. They played with each other instead of against each other.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Like many of us, I was a guitar player for a long time before I ever touched a PSG. I dunno, but I think guitarists study under the Nikita Kruschev school of "We will bury you" philosophy of social interaction - part of it is simply the common view of guitar playing as a form of competitive athletics.

I agree - it is a good thing to just stop playing completely at times. One of those times is when someone is taking an extended solo. The only time I ever play anything then is if I can see something I can play under the soloist that helps lift up what they're doing. Otherwise, I put the bar down. But you'd be surprised how many times people ask me why I'm not playing all the time.

I recognize how hard it is for a lot of guitarists to just sit there and not play. They (me included if we go back a ways) tend to get antsy just sitting there, thinking they're supposed to be doing something all the time, maybe to impress the chicks, I dunno. I think they figure, "I'll just play rhythm guitar - that's what you do when you're not playing lead guitar, right?". Unfortunately, I don't think, percentage-wise, many guitarists or guitar teachers think in terms of orchestrating the instrument, and that space is at least as, if not more, important than the played notes themselves. IMO, of course.

Carroll Hale · From: EastTexas, USA

it is all about "teamwork"....no one instrument/person should hog the show....sharing the spotlite with the "singer" is as much a part of a good band as anything else.........unless they all learn to do their part...in their time.....usually, the band/team or whatever will fail.....wonder how many really great artists never made the big time because of trying to always be the "star" of the show.....jmho.....

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

If they (lead guitar) insist on playing all the time, hand them a bass guitar , drumsticks, or a rythme guitar, and tell them to knock them selves out.

Bill Fuentes · From: Garland, Texas, USA

(in the context of average bar bands, not steel guitar shows)
I can't believe I'm saying this but, it is possible to have too much steel. Is it too cliche to say "if it fits the song then play", otherwise just hang out it in the background and don't try and shoe horn steel parts into every song. Unless of course your band plays covers that have steel in every song, that would be awesome. Same would go with Fiddle, Harmonica, Accordians etc.. people see and hear those as special sounds that lift choruses, emphasize and enhance melodies and take occasional lead breaks, they start to lose their appeal if your bombarded with it.

In other words, there's such a thing as "Too much of a good thing".

What was the question? Smile

Oh, and take a lesson from Blue Grass, when it's your turn step up and rip, then step back and support

Bryan Rankins · From: Missouri, USA

Don't you guys know that us guitar players get paid by the note, not the job. If we play over a certain amount of notes on a gig, we get 20 S&H green stamps. I'm still working toward getting that little hibachi grill. 25 more gigs and I should have it.
_________________
09'Rittenberry SD10 (3&5),Thomas D-10 (8&4), Sarno Preamp, BJS bars, Hilton Volume Pedals, Boulet Boots, Walker Seats.

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Musical taste, refinement, manners, restraint, respect....takes many lifetimes for a guitar player to learn this--I know, I am one.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Pity, but some lead guitarists simply do not know to stop playing lead. It's easy in theory; you play rhythm, he plays lead. When you start playing lead, he starts playing rhythm.

Alas, the main problem is that some players don't know the difference between lead and rhythm. I also don't adhere to the theory that if the lead player is doing his lead stuff that you should be just sitting there looking (and being) useless.

LEARN to play rhythm on your steel. And by the way, you don't need any extra low strings to do it! Wink

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

The bottom line is everyone must listen to the entire band sound to determine where they fit in.

Hacks only listen to themselves.

I enjoy playing with other lead instruments that understand this.

One elementary concept that I haven't noticed in the above posts is:
The instrument that is playing the fills, directly before the solo, does not play the solo.

When players switch back and forth using this rule it often sounds like a rehearsed arrangement.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Musical interraction is like any other conversation. Some folks are shy, or speak volumes with few "words", while others think what they have to say is more important than anyone else.

I've had some sit-in gigs with the guys that play every fill, all night, and while an appalling display of ego, it's just amusing to me for one night. No way I'd stay in a situation like that.

Some of the younger cats in a few of my bands are very eager to learn to play/work together, and take advice like Joey's above to heart. I'm impressed with that. Some people naturally listen to what's making a band, recording, or arrangement work, and internalize those ideas, while others are focusing on their own flash or impact and don't look at the big picture. Hopefully they'll respond to gentle direction or suggestion, but if not, it might be time to move on.

I'm very lucky to get to play with a bunch of different units and it makes the occasional ego displays easier to weather. One of the guys I play with a lot is a fine player, versatile and flashy, but loves his own licks- If I take a chorus, he takes two. If I split a chorus with him, next time around he takes a chorus and a half. It can get annoying, and diminishes some of the enjoyment of the musical interplay.

Another guitarist I know has if anything, more to say, more chops in more styles... but he listens to me and others, and the interplay is totally give-and-take, and very inspiring. We always end up egging each other onto higher levels of expression, and the joy that improvising can bring in spades. What fun!

The most interesting thing to me is that these guys know each other. We all make choices.

My choice is to play with the guys who listen, whenever possible.

Colby Tipton · From: Crosby, Texas, USA

Play with real musicians.

Papa Joe Pollick · From: Swanton, Ohio

Bill brought up a very interesting and
"true" point about too much steel,or any lead insturment.
Because I'm not an accomplished steeler,I've never been hired as one.My main insturment is lead,and vocals.I double on steel and harp.
Something that I've noticed is that EVERY song that I play steel or harp on,gets more positive responce than the ones that are just lead guitar.We're talkin maybe 4 or 5 tunes per set.But when I'm with a band that has a good steel player there doesn't seem to be any differnce in audience reaction between songs.The steel is in every song.I'm thinkin that they are taking it for granted that the steel should be there and just don't pay attention.While in my case [when I'm doubling] they say "hey thats different" and applaud or at least look up and smile.
As I said I'm not a "hot"steeler,very fundimental,but with good intonation and tastful fills and simple melody leads.
I hope some day to be good nuff to hire out as a steeler and play more.Then I can cuss out the lead picker. Laughing

PJ

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic