what about compression to record steel ?

Ariel Lobos · From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

Hi everybody,I 've been reading articles in magazines,books and this site for more than year and a half and I never so any steel player talking about compression....
is it a bad effect for steel guitar? ,mostly slide guitar players in regular guitar use it....

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

When you cut stuff in the studio, they'll usually add whatever they need. But for your "standard setup" (playing live or practicing), it's really not necessary, IMHO.

John Macy · From: Rockport TX/Denver CO

I never record steel with it, but use some during the mix on most sessions... It's an awesome tool in the right hands... Smile

David Doggett · Posted 19 Mar 2007 1:45 pm

An accomplished pedal steeler uses the volume pedal as manual compression. They jerk back on the VP to soften the attack, and increase the VP to compensate for the vibration decay of the strings to maintain even sustain. That is exactly what electronic compression does for regular guitar. Smooth VP technique is very difficult to learn, but good players can do amazing things. For beginners, adding compression helps smooth out rough volume pedal technique. But that can also be a crutch that thwarts the development of good VP technique. For that reason I keep away from compression when practicing and playing live. In the studio, it can be added after the fact if needed.

richard burton · From: Britain

Do a search for forum member Dave Grafe.

I seem to remember Dave giving some very good studio advice regarding compression,in a post on the old 'Electronics' forum.

Where is Dave lately?

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

My take,..well..if the issue is recording Steel and attempting to avoid the volume swells, you can do that with a pre-amp with a Limiter feature.The best overall approach to a DRY recording is to get as much signal onto tape ( hard drive) without signal processing and add that stuff AFTER the fact .

I'm not 100% certain with the definition but I believe that a Limiter and Compressor are bascially the same thing with the Limiter having a much smaller EFFECT window whereas a Compressor can actually add sonic "Sound" to the envelope which is why folks use it, they boost the overall gain after the compression which adds that sustain that sounds cool.

When recording, it is best to record DRY, with no effects, add effects after the fact so that you're final take does not already include an effect patch that cannot be removed.

If you do have to record with some compression use as slight a setting as possible to achieve the results.

There was a period back around the late 70's when many of the STAR players were in fact using the MXR little RED Compressor stomp pedal. I remember seeing Buddy Charleton use one and man it was set at the highest possible compression/gain setting..which back then sounded pretty cool, I ran out and bought one..used it for a while, it sounded like crud..I put it away, eventually lost it...

For final mixing a Compressor can be a very fine tool to maintain control of track peaks. I like what John says, in the right hands it's a great tool and we would probably not even know it was used, in the wrong hands it's obvious.

t

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

In GENERAL,

A Limiter will control the maximum volume level or "limit" it to a set maxium.

A Compressor will tend to keep all of the signal at a set level.

They do not perform the same electrical function.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I record my steel with no compression at all. Later, at mixdown, I compress a little to remove some peaks so I can bring the average steel level up without getting distortion on the peaks. In this case you can't really hear any compression, or what sounds like a compressed, dynamic-less sound. My normal setting is a hard knee, 6:1 compression starting at -6db. so the compressor doesn't even kick in until -6 db, then it reduces the gain by 6:1 between -6 and 0 db. This seems to retain most of the explosive dynamics in the sound while achieving a little more evenness in volume.

Greg

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Jack you are correct, but keep in mind they can both be used to CAP the signal at the top. Many units are a combo..Compressor/Limiter.

A Compressor has very gentle ratios but can be set for severe, while a Limiter generally has severe ratio's, and cannot be set for gentle. A Compressor set with a very hi ratio and hard knee with a low Threshold and Attack is acting more like a Limiter.

Thats the comparison I was making.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Tony, as I noted I was talking in GENERAL terms.

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

I'm new to recording but was surpised to learn that compression is not additive, its exponential..so 4:1 at recording, then 4:1 at mix and another 2:1 at mastering, does not equal 10:1, it equals 32:1.
go easy on the compression is what I took from that little nugget of info.

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

As I see it, there are basically two ways to look at compression on steel, as an overt effect, as Tony mentions hearing in the 70's, and as a more subtle level management device. I rarely record with compression, but if using a patch or amp with any kind of peaky characteristics, it can smooth out just the peaks, with a light ratio 3-1 to 5-1 or so. Compression is one of those devices where all of the controls are quite interactive, and for studio recording I'd recommend a good one with threshold, attack, ratio, and release controls. They can be expensive, but the RNC "real nice compressor" and ART TCS both give good bang for the $. The Alesis 3630 is ok in a pinch, but a bit more colored.

The compression as effect thing can be really fun, or make a particular track stand out. The floor pedal two knob stomp boxes can do that well. There are a number of late 70's Emmons tracks with that sound, kind of a "bwarmp" on each note, almost like 1/2 of an autowah. Guitarists often spend a lot on boutique stomp boxes, some of which sound great, but can be more $ than a nice rack unit.

There are additional effects to be found using the side chain input of a compressor, which runs the compression effect from an external device, say an EQ, where only certain frequencies are effected, or a drum track or machine, where the steel track could burble away as compression is applied/removed rhythmically.

Often when I record at other studios the engineer will run me through an Avalon or Manley studio comp., and after saying "give me your hottest level" and adjusting, he can't figure out why the compressor doesn't kick off... they aren't used to the "manual compression" factor of the volume pedal, and that our highest output level is not where we usually play.

It is good to err on the side of less compression, as a highly compressed track will disappear and become more lifeless as additional compression is applied in mixdown.

Ariel Lobos · From: Buenos Aires, Argentina

GREAT ADVICES GENTLEMANS,AS ALWAYS AT THIS GREAT FORUM...I'M GOING TO EXPERIMENT WITH ALL YOUR REPLAYS.REGARDS

Leon Grizzard · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I don't know what kind of recorder you are using, but another way to smooth out a track is to copy it to a new song and do like a mixdown of that one track, using fader moves to smooth it out, then pasting the processed track back in the original song. Maybe do that first to get the big lumps smoothed out, and then a little compression for the little lumps.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

What Macy said.
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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Yes what John Macy said.

Compression is basically making the dynamic range
of a recording smaller over all.

Limiting is preventing peaks from going to far
in the TOP of the range.

Similar, but not exactly the same.

Also there are multi-band limiter/compressors that leave
some parts untouched and only control
a certain sonic segment.

Like only the bass end gets ajusted,
but Low mid, High Mid and Highs go untouched.
Or any combination of those possibilities.
That way if the bass gets too loud it is controled,
but the cymbals and vocal track don't dip
with the bass drum...
Some would know this as the 'AGC effect';
The Auto Gain Control on cheaper recorders.

Music pumping up and down when only one band is causing over signal.
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Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

I think when it comes to the steel, like with most instruments, the amount of compression that should be used is kind of like the amount of drums heard in bluegrass music:

Little if any.

Too much compression and you will have some very flat sounding music. Better to compress a little when tracking and more when mixing, because compression is just like salt in a recipe, you can always add more, but sure can't take it out once it's in.

I have heard that some older engineers would put an index card over the meter on a compressor, and use their ears. When you can hear the compressor working you are probably applying too much.

Gerald

Frederic Mabrut · From: Olloix, France

I record steel with just a limiter calibrated to -0.1dBfs just in case the steel guitarist wears diver's lead shoes.
Otherwise, Greg Cutshaw and David Donald are right; you can always apply a compressor later to have your steel fitting better in your mix, compressing only some frequencies.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

With the dynamic range of today's digital equipment, it's rarely necessary to compress a signal as you record it. I think of compression as something that you add during mixing to normalize unruly tracks, and during mastering (a little bit) to increase apparent loudness and energy of the entire mix.

It's easy to go overboard with compression. I recently applied too much compression to a marimba track, and the resonator sound sustained very loudly between mallet strikes. It gave the acoustic instrument an odd electronic quality. I can't reproduce that sound live, but I've decided to keep it on the recording because it's so unusual.

The steel player's volume pedal can create level problems when recording. An amateur player (like me) will sometimes back off the volume pedal during a delicate passage, but on the recording we want it up front and fully present. Here, the compressor becomes an automated tool to use instead of trying to ride the level manually during mixdown.
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David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

If the level is averaging too low even in the large dynamic range of digital,
you get issues of 'digital chatter' or just weak sound 'tails' in the decays etc.
Yes the Signal to Noise is quite good,
but that isn't the ONLY factor in a good digital sound,
You still want to get your levels pretty close to
a proper 0db reference if possible.

That said, very small peak limiting is helpfull
for those miscalculated divers feet moments.

But never a lot. Just sort of a safty valve vs digital distortion.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Al Terhune · From: Newcastle, WA

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

It is not "Tone Sucking".

If the part of the tone you hear loudest
is the harmonics you prefer,(logically)
then when compressing the signal,
the 1st thing compressed is the
loudest component of the total signal
or the loudest harmonics present.

The harmonics are still there but,
relative to the other parts of the signal
these harmonics have diminished dynamics.

IE closer in level,
or brought to the same volume,
relative to
the other components of the signal.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Compressors are great tools, but the first thing you should do with them while recording is turn them OFF.

IF the player or vocalist cannot get the PEAK signals under control, now you can turn it on, but just barely.

The KNEE setting going from Soft to Hard is there for a reason.

I am thinking the reason many new recordings have a bunch of compression is the TIME factor. The Engineers and Producers do not want to spend gobs of time teaching a Guitar player or Vocalist how to get it right, especially when the Enginner can get it CLOSE with a limiter or compressor.

IF you hear compression in a recording, it's not the compressors fault.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

And add that the WORST abuse is in
mastering for radio punch.
WAY, WAY too common these days.

The just take the top 3rd of the dynamic range,
crunch it down to the 2/3rd point,
they then boost that up to maximum output.

You can reach the most listeners at the far edges
of a broadcasters range and legal power limit.
And it also means your music isn't lost down below the level of the ADs...
since th AD SPACE sold is the bread and butter of a station,
getting the most "REACH" is considered mandatory.

Of course this makes all the music program not punchy in comparison.
So the lables tell the mastering guys in no uncertain terms,
we don't give a fig how you do it,
just make it compete.

Which doesn't make compressors and limitors 'Bad Tools'.
Just good tools used in 'I could care less' hands.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.

Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!

Randy Beavers · From: Lebanon,TN 37090

I would say quite a bit depends on how good the compressor is. Unfortunately the good ones are pricey, but I'm sure there are exceptions.

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