Stainless strings... harder pulls????

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I am stringing up my Carter with Stainless strings, and wow, they seem much harder to play, making the action high and stiff.. Is this normal???.. I put the low B on, and low E and now the pulls won't go NEAR where they were with nickels.. MUCH longer pulls needed, and the pedals seem stiffer than hell ... Is this how they usually play??... bob

Curt Langston · Posted 23 Mar 2007 6:47 pm

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

this is awful...why would anyone want to play these horrid things??? I never tried them before, and I am sorry I did this time... bob

Curt Langston · Posted 23 Mar 2007 7:06 pm

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2007 7:18 pm

I prefer stainless steel strings. The wound strings sound brighter with better definition, and they last much longer. But since I have always used them, the action and pulls on all my guitars are setup so they feel normal to me. It's been a long time since I used any nickel strings, but I don't remember that affecting the action. However, I have noticed that some manufacturers strings (wounds and unwounds) stretch more than others and take longer to stabilize to a pitch.

Curt Langston · Posted 23 Mar 2007 7:29 pm

Good points David.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Sorry to disagree Dave, but I find a huge difference.. My Carter went from super short,effortless pulls to long hard uncomfortable pulls in minutes... These things are NOT staying on this guitar... bob

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

With every brand I've used, stainless wound strings require less pull than nickel wound strings. In other words if your pedal pulls a half step (100 cents) on a nickel wound string, and you replace it with a stainless wound string, that pedal will pull about 120 cents. I may be a little off with the 20% figure.
I don't know how the tension differs between the two. Of course this could be much different if you compare two strings with very different core/wrapping thicknesses.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Are they the same brand, Bob? Jagwire makes strings for the Carter Starter in both nickel and stainless. I think that both have the same size core. It's possible that the stainless strings you bought have different size core if they are a different brand.

I switched from Jagwire nickel to Jagwire stainless once, using the same gauges. I didn't have to adjust anything very much, and the pedals felt the same. I switched back to nickel the next time around because I preferer the sound of the nickel wounds.
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Curt Langston · Posted 23 Mar 2007 11:36 pm

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Yes, the stainless do have a much higher Rockwell rating. That is intentional. It's no accident. If you are having problems with extra 'push' required to get the desired results, you may just want to examine what it is that you're playing. I use George L's stainless and have for over 20 years because I got sick and tired of the nickel 'softies' flopping dead in the aisle after two gigs. I just changed out a set of George L's SS strings after 13+ months. I did it for a reason. I had converted a standard PSG to keyless. . .I wanted to know what the difference would be in string life. I guess I found out. Ironically, the 'new' strings don't sound much different than the old ones did!! I loved the 'nickel' sound back then, but SS is now the only way to fly for me. George L's forever!!!
PRR

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I've been using SS, mostly, since my Franklin was new in late 81. It came with Lawrence SS strings on it. I've tried nickel once or twice and even the Franklin strings but went back to SS, but I didn't notice any difference in pedal or knee lever feel. Everyone that has played my steel comments on how easy the pedals and knee levers are.

I've been using George L's SS since they first came out in the 80's.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

b0b,
core thickness.. hmmm ..hadn't considered that, but it would explain things...

anyway, these are Ernie Ball.
I have used their nickel sets for years.. something is out of whack here,,,this steel does NOT like these strings.
I guess since they are on I'll try them, but first impressions are not good..
Who knows??.
Maybe EB just doesn't know how to make a good stainless E9 set or something... bob

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

SO would the stainless strings have a greater lower?
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I recently switched from Jagwire Nickel to Jagwire Stainless and only had to make a couple of slight adjustments to tune the pulls. There was virtually no change in the feel of the pulls.

You may want to try a different brand of strings before making your final decision on which you prefer. I know a young man in California that hosts a steel guitar forum and is a Jagwire dealer. He's a great source for strings.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

My experience----SS are somewhat more tension sensitive than nickel resulting in shorter pulls. My strings, nickel & SS are bulk purchased from juststring.com who for some reason will not divulge the maker of their bulk strings. I assume, with no basis, that they are both the same make.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Thanks, Jon; I'll check it out.
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Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

Jon - You obviously noted that SS strings are a little 'touchier' on initial setup/tuning. . .they do tend to be. I found that by merely 'forming' the strings over the rollers with my fingers when re-stringing alleviated that problem. It sounds so simple and it is. But it works well. George Lewis explained the differences to me once in wound strings from brand to brand. There is very little difference brand to brand with the plain strings, but when you get into the wound strings, core wire diameter can and does vary considerably and will show up immediately re: changer travel. Some makers use a small core wire with large wraps, some use a larger core wire with small diameter wraps. The resultant difference in changer travel will become apparent. George claimed to use 'equal thirds' with his wound strings. Say, a .030" wound would have a .010" core wire with a .010" diameter wrap wire, etc. Another maker might use a .016" core with .007" wrap. There would definitely be a difference in effort and travel. (I hope I conveyed that correctly, George).
PRR

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have a Carter and switched from Nickel to stainless last year (both types were Jagwires) and noticed very little or no difference in the pulls and had to do very little retuning of my pedal/knee lever pulls. However, I did notice a little tone difference and they seem to last longer before they lose their tuning stability and tone.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Last night I accidentally replaced a stainless .038 with a nickel one. It came up about 7 or 8 cents flat on a whole step raise. So that is about 4% .

Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Friday afternoon I changed strings on my Carter, it had stainless on it, but all I had was a couple sets of Nickol strings [won't mention brand name] I didn't notice any difference in pedal pulls being harder or softer but I did have to retune everything.
Saturday nite half way through the second set I noticed strings begining to go flat, mainley the 5th, 6th,8th, and 10th strings! That just about covers the wound strings don't it? Rolling Eyes

Getting ready to order some Stainless Steel Jagwires from b0b right now! Wink

Larry
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Tom Jordan · From: Wichita, KS

After being introduced to SS strings several years ago I switched and never looked back. Like anything else they are a compromise...longivity verses "sound".
My metabolism when I was younger, killed my strings nightly and I got really tired of changing them. The SS strings just wouldn't die...until they broke of course. Breakage was less for me than on on conventional strings because I couldn't "rust 'em out" as quick.

the issues I've had (and still do) is that the break-in period is longer. The coursness does "flatten out" after a night or two though. I use stainless on my lap steels and tele as well and I have never broken a string with my bender.

Sorry to hear that they are giving you issues Bob...are they a heavier guage that you are used to?

Tom Jordan

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I'm OK with either Nickel or SS, but I've grown to really like SS on pedal steel. I don't like them on 6-string guitar. They just don't physically feel or sound right, to me, and I've tried plenty. With some guitars - like my Legrande - I actually needed to increase the tension to get enough spring constant to get the pedals to return to pitch fast enough. But I also like the slightly more penetrating tone, at least on E9.

I believe, and have always been told, that the primary tension production is the effective inner core diameter, as b0b suggests. The core is what takes the brunt of the tension - try pulling on the winding of a spent string with anything like the up-to-pitch string tension - it will unravel like a cheap suit. I think the winding has some effect, but my sense is that the core diameter is the dominant variable.

The problem is that it's very hard to find info on this from manufacturers - at least, I've looked and come up dry, at least in terms of anything comprehensive. Another issue is round vs. hex core. D'Addario pioneered hex cores, but I believe some other manufacturers use them now.

It seems ironic that we really know so little about strings. For the most part, string manufacturers are big on marketing hype, and small on real useful information. D'Addario is an exception, and at least publish a useful PDF file with tension data for their string lines AT THIS URL.

For example, using this chart, one can see that the tension of a nickel-plated-steel wound XL .036" diameter string tuned to "B" has 24.6 pounds of tension. Similarly, a stainless-steel-wound XLS .036" diameter string tuned to "B" has 25.9 pounds of tension. So clearly there is a bit more tension with a comparable stainless-wound string, but not a lot.

I think all this stuff makes a big difference, but they're still selling us "magical tone like no other" and don't bother to spell out the details. I sorta get it - it's like a trade secret. I guess it wouldn't be too tough to take the winding off some strings, make measurements, and publish them. Hmmm... maybe an idea. Or perhaps someone has already done it?

These are all my opinions, of course. Smile

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I would have to guess that core diameter, as our congenial host has suggested, is the problem here.. I have settled in and adjusted physically.. I gigged with the stainless set last night with no problems.. It was bit of a shock at first..

The A pedal is the main problem, so its probably the low B.. If the core diameter is bigger than what I had on, I imagine I would notice a longer stiffer pull. I think I can deal.... bob

Geoff Barnes · From: Sydney, Australia

+1 for the Jagwire stainless.
I recorded a song yesterday and halfway through realised I hadn't tuned it. Just pulled it from it's case,set it up, started rehearsing my part, then hit record.
That sucker was perfectly in tune on both necks... the jagwires are easily the best strings I've ever used. Cool

I also use the fat rotosound stainless strings on my P-bass.
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