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Topic: running guitar and pedal steel through the same amp.. |
Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 23 Mar 2007 8:51 pm |
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I just wanted to get some ideas from those of yall using the same amp for guitar and psg. Ive been running my sho-bud through one input on my twin reverb, and running my tele through the other input. The twin doesnt have an effects loop. All
I want is my analog delay for both steel and tele, and a sparkle drive for the tele. Is the best option to run both the PS, and 6 string through the volume pedal straight to the effects then to the amp? The sho-bud doesnt have a volume knob, so I was wondering if it would be a problem when I switched to guitar and had the volume pedal all the way down if that steel being wide open is going to cause problems.(feedback or whatever else). |
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 23 Mar 2007 9:37 pm
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Alex,
Go to the music store and get an A-B box 
Larry
_________________
Carter SD/10, 4&5 Hilton Pedal, Peavey Sessions 400, Peavey Renown 400, Home Grown Eff/Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2007 5:15 am
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| Try getting an outboard effects unit for the dry side and play guitar thru it. |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2007 5:22 am
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| wher does the A/B switch go? After or before the volume pedal? |
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Mike Fried
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2007 2:17 pm
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Alex, put the A-B box after the volume pedal. The Sparkle Drive has true bypass, so it won't affect the tone of either instrument when it's off. If you use a "Radial Big Shot I/O" A-B box (highly recommended), you can balance the level of the two instruments as well as switch to a tuner for silent tuning of either instrument.
_________________
Visit my music page at http://facebook.com/drfried |
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Bill Moran
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2007 5:30 pm
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I have done the two instrument thing. The only
way you will be happy will be, buy a Vegas 400 for both or buy a Evans for the steel and use the Twin for the guitar. Two amps are double trouble but most likely the best idea. 
_________________
Bill |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2007 6:36 pm
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| I've got a Goodrich blend box at the shop that has 2 inputs and one output and can be either/or or blended. I don't remember how much it is (?$75-80?)but their products always are top notch |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Mar 2007 12:52 am
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On our regular rotation gig I use use two amps exclusivley, it's a large stage and a very large room.
Steel-->V Pedal-->Peavey Profex channel A---> N400
Peavey Profex Channel B--> Morley AB Pedal IN A
(Steel)
Morley AB Pedal IN B-->Telecaster
Morley AB Pedal Output--> Fender Hot Rod Deville
In this configuration the Steel can go thru both amps but the 6 string is limited to just the Fender Amp.
If I had a Twin Reverb I would use only 1 amp...
tp |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2007 7:42 am
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Alex, the real problem is that you need to generally use different preamp tubes and a drastically different bias setting for steel than 6-string. Any way you use one amp for both, one...or both...instruments is not going to sound its best. Dialing-in a tube amp for steel, as we've discussed previously, is different than for guitar. You're much better off with two amps and a dedicated setup for each - even your effects settings will be very different.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 25 Mar 2007 5:30 pm
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You can add a Boss A-B box in your chain. Run the Tele into one input of the A/B box and the steel (from the last effect unit you have) into the other input of the A/B box. Then, the 3rd jack on the A/B acts as a sending signal to plug into your amp.
I have done this with much success with my single-channel Steel King. I hit the A/B pedal, turn up the treble and EQ Tilt to about 3:00 - 4:00 each and off I go. Takes less than 5 seconds on stage! |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2007 5:41 pm
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| Joe, where do you run your effects for your tele? I want to run my effects after the a/b box in order to use my analog delay with both steel and 6 string, and my overdrive with the guitar only. would this work? |
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Paul Arntson
From:
Washington, USA
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Mar 2007 9:24 pm
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The best adive in that thread was from Jim Peters IMO - one amp for steel, another for guitar.
Even using a tube preamp for guitar won't get over the major hump - six-strings sound best when the power tubes bloom and you hit close to the saturation point of the OT. Plugging some box into a SS steel amp so you can try to play guitar through it is just crippling your guitar tone.
Why not just try to get the best tone you can out of both, instead of fooling arounf with compromised tone for one or the other? If you're going to play both on stage, IMO it's not that big a hassle to bring the right amp for each one.
That's not to say there are not good suggestions here, and I'm getting a kick out of my POD - but I always default to going for the best tone first...then worry about the logistics.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 7:04 am
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| I like the sound im getting from my steel directly into my twin. I also like the sound of my tele directly in my twin with just a little grit. I might just forget about the a/b box and run the steel in one input, and the tele into another running through a sparkle drive. My maxon analog delay just broke, so now I cant use it for either guitar. |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 7:47 am
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Alex, I play steel and lead both on almost every gig and usually do it with two amps as that's the best way, hands down! Sometimes in a smaller venue I'll use one amp but it's always one with two separate channels. I don't have a Twin but I do have a MusicMan 2-12 which is like a Twin on steriods and has the same channel set up. On steel I use only a Boss delay pedal but with my Tele I use a Boss ME-50 multiple effects board so I play the guitar through the 1st channel and the Steel through the normal channel. On guitar I like to turn the bass down to almost zero and the treble way up, on steel it's just the opposite so two separate channels (or amps) are neccessary. I've recently purchased an old Peavey Stereo Chorus 400 which has two separate channels which both have a separate master volume and the effects work on both channels so I've been using that a lot. I think if you use only one amp with only one channel you'll have to sacrifice something on one instrument or the other. Also an A/B switch is out as sometimes it's fun to play leads using both instruments similar to the way Doug Jernigan does "Bonnie Marie" on both necks.....JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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Mike Fried
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 9:24 am
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Geez guys, Alex has already said that he likes the sound he's getting through the one amp, so why don't we let him use it! He asked for advice on how to best utilize his Twin, not for opinions on how to expand his rig to two or more amps...
_________________
Visit my music page at http://facebook.com/drfried |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 11:10 am
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These days, I often insert a Pod 2 for guitar, as elaborated in the thread Paul A. referenced. That generally works even with a single-channel amp, but one could A/B switch between two channels - in that case, the Pod would be between the amp and the A side of the switch, and whatever steel effects I used would be between the amp and B side of the switch.
But another solution mentioned by Jim Sliff is to use different preamp tubes for each channel, then an A/B box to switch channels. Where to put the A/B box depends on the situation, for me. I sometimes use delay with both guitar and steel, and prefer delay as the last effect in the signal chain. So in this situation, I prefer the A/B box to split right before the amp input.
To do this, I need to make a simple amp mod to put reverb on both channels, since I like it with both steel and guitar. But I also like a bit more preamp gain for guitar, and am not a big fan of distortion pedals - maybe something to give a little clean gain like a clean boost or compressor with a low compression ratio - no more than 1.5:1.
So for steel in a Twin or Dual Showman Reverb, I typically use a 5751 or 12AY7 preamp tube in the steel channel to lower the gain for the typically very hot steel pickup, and then use the hottest 12AX7 I can find for the guitar channel with a wee bit of a clean boost. I set the guitar channel and boost volumes to give my loudest and most aggressive solo sound, and use the volume pedal and/or boost-cut to clean it up.
It sometimes takes a delicate balance to make this work, IMO. In a small room, I often find it hard to tame the guitar's volume enough with a Twin or Dual Showman Reverb and still get the tonality I want. In a loud band, it's not usually a problem, but if it's more laid back, it can be, for me at least. In that situation, I usually find it better to insert the Pod 2 on Blackface 1 (Deluxe Reverb), and they are cheap now. YMMV, as always. |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 11:58 am
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| dave, I guess I dindt understand clearly what jim was trying to say. I think im starting to get it. Im like a caveman when it comes to electronics (or pretty much everything else). Please tell me if im wrong. There is a seperate preamp tube for the vibrato channel and the normal channel? Say I was to play the steel out of the normal channel. I could put a 5751 or a 12ayz preamp tube in there for a cleaner sound. I could then put a hotter preamp tube in the vibrato channel for guitar. How can I tell which tubes to replace? If I coud do that, + have the reverb on both channels, my problems would be solved. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 1:03 pm
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Alex, it's a lot more complicated.
In a two-channel Fender amp, the "Normal" channel has less gain than the "Vibrato" channel. If you're used to your Tele in the vibrato, or reverb, channel it will sound very lifeless in the other channel...and if you play steel through that channel you have no reverb AND a gain loss (more loss and a deader sound than a tube substitution would give you). Adding reverb to the other channel is not a simple operation, at least done correctly.
As far as which tube is which - the first small tube is the "normal" channel preamp tube; the second one is the "vibrato" channel preamp tube. The others run vibrato, reverb, and the last small one is the phase inverter, or "driver" tube, that pushes the power tubes. That tube is VERY important and needs to be a good, well-balanced tube. A lot of players never think about this one and it can create...or solve...a lot of problems.
The second input in each channel is also lower gain than the first input of that channel - so you lose something there as well if it's used for a second guitar.
I understand that you like the tones you get with both guitars into the amp, but there are better ways to approach it that will result in BETTER tone, that's all.
But trying to use both without an A/B box will NOT give you what you've been getting, period.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Alex Piazza
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 3:50 pm
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| Jim, This a little off the subject of two instruments in the same amp. I really havent figured out what to do next. If you were going to make a twin reverb more suited for steel, what would you do? I think you mentioned biasing it colder. Im thinking of something I could do on my own, like swapping preamp tubes, Or swapping that phase inverter tube? |
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Kevin Mincke
From:
Farmington, MN (Twin Cities-South Metro) USA
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Joe Alterio
From:
Irvington, Indiana
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Posted 26 Mar 2007 4:51 pm
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| Alex Piazza wrote: |
| Joe, where do you run your effects for your tele? I want to run my effects after the a/b box in order to use my analog delay with both steel and 6 string, and my overdrive with the guitar only. would this work? |
You can certainly hook it up that way |
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 27 Mar 2007 11:58 am
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I thought I saw a few incorrect statements but I could be wrong so correct me if I am.
Looking from the back of you amp at the amp.....left to right.......
6l6, 6l6, 6l6, 6l6, Phase inverter,Trem, Revb, Revb, channel 2 which has reverb, channel one which has no reverb.
I thought a post above stated the third preamp tube to be trem and not one of the reverb related tubes.
Also on the guitar inputs on each channel, they have different resistors on each so that if you had a very hot pickup you would plug into the input to the left to decrease the possible preamp distortion. But I beleive that when both are used at the same time on the same channel they both revert to having the same input at the same value as the first input. So if you plugged a steel and a guitar into on channel one input would not be different than the other.
I'm having reverb added to each channel on mine right now I'll let you know how much time and money it took for someone to do it. It's part of some other work but it should be listed on it's own.
Steve |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 29 Mar 2007 9:49 am
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Steve -- are you following the same conversation...the rest of us are on this thread??
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Steve Waltz
From:
USA
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Posted 29 Mar 2007 10:15 am
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"Steve -- are you following the same conversation...the rest of us are on this thread??"
Tim,
I responded to different issues in this thread. Others brought up putting reverb on each channel for one option to additional effects on one amp, even if it is just reverb.
There was a comment about plugging two guitars into the same channel. That comment made it sound like one guitar would have less input power due to the resistors on those inputs.
There was a statement about what the third preamp tube does.
I think I get what is being discussed and if I'm not getting it, what difference does it make to you? Ignore it and go on your way. I'm not sure why you would care.
I would think that you would have better things to do than complain about how my points don't seem proper to you.
Steve |
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