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Topic: Time it takes to build? |
John Cox
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 4:01 am |
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| I don't mean to be a pest but, can someone please explain (though I'm sure this may have been mentioned in an earlier thread) How one steel builder can build a guitar in one day while it takes the other a year or two. J.C. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 7:34 am
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The one who takes a day has a full set of quality parts in front of him(her)ready to go.
The one who takes a year is most likely making the components/parts as he goes along...
It obviously does not take a year to assemble an Instrument. I would take a wild guess and say that most builders can probably assemble a Steel , if all the components were in front of them, in approx. the same amount of time, whether it be a day or two or a week...
The actual assembly time is probably not the issue...
Anyone could do it if they had the parts ! |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 7:53 am
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A single builder working at his own pace that he is comfortably able to do with a backlog of instruments to make who is doing ALL the assembly, polishing, cabinet work etc who does not maintain a large facility or a large parts inventory...a year or two makes sense. You want his guitar--you get it when HE gets it done.
A high profile manufacturer is a different story. They usually deal in larger quantities and runs of components so that all they do is reach in bins and bolt parts together. They have workers to do the tedious stuff like polishing parts and such. I bet Bud Carter can put a guitar together in an afternoon if all the parts are just setting right in front of him. But if he has to make all those parts himself and polish them all and make the cab...well that is the difference. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 8:50 am
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| Its supply and demand. Some guitar makers have two year backlogs in their demand, others three months. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 1:31 pm
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Assembling steels is pretty straight-forward, and CNC machines simplify the machining process. The majority of time is in the finishing operations. These are mostly "hand-work" operations, and you have to allow processing time for glues/adhesives, and for finishing (aluminum polishing, or spraying/drying).
A "backlog" is only a bad thing if it causes you to loose customers that you can't afford to loose. Some builders, frankly, have all the business they want, and therefore they have no reason at all rush things.
"If you can't wait for me, go someplace else." |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 3:54 pm
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| Tony Prior wrote: |
| The actual assembly time is probably not the issue...Anyone could do it if they had the parts ! |
Which begs the question that, given that all the major builders have order backlogs for new steel guitars, and, obviously they know what parts will be required to build new guitars, WHY, then, don't they have the requisite parts on hand to build guitars to fill future orders?
It's not rocket science, after all. |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 4:02 pm
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| Kevin Hatton wrote: |
| Its supply and demand. Some guitar makers have two year backlogs in their demand, others three months. |
It's insensitivity to customer demand for their product, which may be the result of the previously mentioned saturation issue - they have all the orders they need, and they simply don't care how long it takes.
But, the end result is predictable - what would YOU do, if you wanted to buy a Toyota, for example, and discovered one would not be available for over a year? Most people would look at other options. |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 4:14 pm Re: Time it takes to build?
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| John Cox wrote: |
| I don't mean to be a pest but, can someone please explain how one steel builder can build a guitar in one day while it takes the other a year or two. |
I've often wondered the exact same thing, John. It's a legitimate question. Carter cranks them out like clockwork. Others seem not to have stumbled upon the virtue of responsiveness to customer demand. |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 4:26 pm
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Let's take another branch of the steel guitar family: the resonator guitar or dobro.
The most successful builder is Tim Scheerhorn. No doubt if he hired assistants as does Paul Beard, he could build more intruments per year.
As it is, he builds about 40 guitars a year.
His base price is now $6,000 and if you join the waiting list and get in line, maybe this will make you feel better if you have to wait for a year or even two years to get a steel from certain builders: you will receive your guitar in something like four-and-a-half years.
Admittedly, building a reso is pretty similar to building a regular acoustic guitar, and it's a lot different than building a pedal steel, which although is still a guitar and demands certain luthiery skills, probably has a little more in common with constructing and assembling a piece of machinery.
Back to Mr. Scheerhorn's waiting list: I never really hear people complain about it-they write a deposit check, then head to the back of the line.
No-I'm not on the list.
_________________
Mark |
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John Cox
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 4:56 pm
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| Thanks guys, I understand the building system alittle better. But, since I'm going to be spending 2-3-4 thousand of my heart earned money I tend to ask questions. I was close to being on someone's list today uintil I was told they had a 2 yr back-log and would have to call back in another year to get on the waiting list. J.C. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 6:07 pm
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The so-called "cottage industries" (like most steel builders) operate more like an artist/craftsman than they do a "factory". They have no stock-holders, no "board" to answer to, and very few (if any) employees. It's the old "different strokes for different folks" thing, whereas some players (the younger ones, I imagine) can afford to wait 2 years for a steel that, for all intents and purposes, is pretty much like most others out there.
When you get older, though, waiting 2 years can be unacceptable, and this (I guess) is why many older players will buy a lesser-known brand that they can get quickly, rather than have to wait years for some "famous name" instrument.
"Resale value" is pretty meaningless if you're not around long enough to sell it.  |
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Paul Redmond
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2007 6:25 pm
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The reason the small producers don't have rambling bins full of parts 'ready to assemble' is primarily 'front' money. I costs a lot of up-front bucks to tool up for a large run of components. A carpenter wouldn't buy up an entire warehouse full of lumber, insulation, wire, shingles, etc. just to build one house at a time unless he was independently wealthy to begin with. He buys components as he needs them. If he has 20 employees building a dozen houses at a time, then the warehouse full of materials would make sense. No individual steel builder is going to spend a kazillion up-front bucks on inventory which may not be consumed for 10 years.
PRR |
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Damien Odell
From:
Springwood, New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 3:04 am
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Yeah - a lot of these guys are a one man show. I ordered a new BMI from Don Fritche nearly 2 years ago - it's almost ready. While I want it as soon as possible, I know that he will have spent many hours getting that guitar just right so when I get it it will be spot on. It's the personal attention to each guitar that takes the time - and makes it worth the wait.
Damien |
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 4:29 am
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The reason Carter "crank them out like clockwork" is that they are probably the only true BUSINESS in the steel guitar business. Most of the rest, with maybe one or two exceptions (Mullen? MSA?), are in varying degrees "only" very highly skilled craftsmen and engineers.
Unfortunately, being a skilled craftsman doesn't make you a skilled businessman anymore than being a skilled businessman makes you a skilled craftsman.
Which type of business one prefers to deal with is totally a matter of personal taste. BTW, mine's a Zum. But I wouldn't mind an MSA. Or a Fulawka. Or a Carter LE. Or an Excel. Or....
- - -
FYI: my first acoustic guitar took 120 hours to build from scratch. A solidbody electric guitar in a one-piece run from scratch takes from 40 hours depending on finish and level of decoration. Doing ten at a time would easily cut those figures in half. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 5:24 am
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For Dave Potter: If you think those who put the TLC and craftsmanship into the guitars they build, as if were their own personal instrument seems unreasonably slow to you, Here's what you can do so you can understand where we come from.
Get your tools out and COMPLETELY disassemble your own personal guitar. If your lucky, it's just a simple S-10. Now just open a fresh jar of Mother's metal polish and polish every one on your metal parts, screws, washers and all. Don't forget your legs and pedalbar/pedals. Don't forget to polish your cabinet with some high quality furniture polish, too. Don't forget to completely disassemble your changer and polish your fingers. Now reassemble everything and get your setup right the first time, tune it up and play. Shouldn't take you more than an afternoon, right?? Pretty elementary, right?? Do you want to just bang your personal guitar together and say "close enough"?? Are you too impatient to wait for quality craftsmanship? We live in an automated fast food WANT IT NOW world---it's negative results are the death of craftsmanship.
Now take the small builder who has to answer the phone 8 times a-day to tell some impatient customer he's doing the best he can, breaking his momentum time after time.
Mr. Small Biz man also has this stuff on his agenda:
1)go to the CNC shop-pickup parts
2)build and finish cabinets
3)answer the phone again
4)de-bur and polish small parts
5)Deliver parts to be professionally polished
6)assemble guitar
7)go to shipper
8)ect. ect. ect. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 5:38 am
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It's highly possible that a one man shop may not WANT to go out more than 1 or 2 Instruments at a clip. A 10 or 12 Instrument back-log may BE his business and exactly what they had planned and forecasted. Remember, as soon as they make the change to go to a higher volume along with the investment required to have parts available ahead of the purchase, the business changes forever.
A slower pace, with a 10 or 12 Instrument back-log which may take two years to complete may not be a bad place to be in life as long as your clients are satisfied. |
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Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 10:11 am
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James said,
Get your tools out and COMPLETELY disassemble your own personal guitar
2)build cabinet
assemble everything to make sure it all fits...take it back apart, finish cabnet
clean parts, polish, clean again, inspect/correct flaws, reassemble, and adjust/roadtest/breakin.
That's all there is to it!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I built the cabnet stain/finish, and most of the machine work, Charles Reece at CLR did ALLof the engeneering,assembly,and setup.
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 11:31 am
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| Another thing is that the machine shops don't just drop everything they are doing to produce your run of 500 parts or so. They are more interested in doing runs of 50,000 parts, and rightfully so. The builders are somewhat at the mercy of their suppliers in many cases. And then if the parts aren't made correctly, you get to wait again...You about need your own CNC machine. Has anyone priced one lately??? |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 4:24 pm
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| Per Berner wrote: |
| Unfortunately, being a skilled craftsman doesn't make you a skilled businessman anymore than being a skilled businessman makes you a skilled craftsman. |
Bingo. And, the dirty little secret is, to do it right, at least where pedal steel guitar sales are concerned, both craftsmanship AND business acumen will contribute to a sucessful enterprise. |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 4:52 pm
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For James Morehead:
| James Morehead wrote: |
| If you think those who put the TLC and craftsmanship into the guitars they build seems unreasonably slow to you, Here's what you can do so you can understand where we come from... |
Yes. I do think that. It boils down to the "one-man" shop issue. It's clearly a conscious decision on the part of the builders not to add equipment and staff to increase production capacity. That's their prerogative, of course. But the answer to the question "Why does it take so long?" is that it doesn't have to. The cat's out of the box that top quality steels can be built reasonably quickly, without sacrificing quality.
| Quote: |
| Are you too impatient to wait for quality craftsmanship? We live in an automated fast food WANT IT NOW world---it's negative results are the death of craftsmanship. |
Sorry. Doesn't compute. I can go to the marketplace selling most other products and get "quality craftmanship" whenever I want, depending on what I what to pay. Want a Lexus? Go buy it. Want a Porche Carrera? You won't have to wait a year and a half...it's here, now. Same for most everything I can think of, EXCEPT some brands of new pedal steel guitars.
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| Now take the small builder who has to answer the phone 8 times a-day to tell some impatient customer he's doing the best he can, breaking his momentum time after time. |
A non-issue - hire a minimum wage helper, or use an answering machine, and deal with the messages en masse, at a more convenient time. And OBTW, while we're at it, join the 21st century and put up a decent web site, like the Carter company has, for example, to provide product and other relevant information. This will reduce the "nuisance" factor of the phone in a big way.
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Mr. Small Biz man also has this stuff on his agenda:
1)go to the CNC shop-pickup parts
2)build and finish cabinets
3)answer the phone again
4)de-bur and polish small parts
5)Deliver parts to be professionally polished
6)assemble guitar
7)go to shipper
8)ect. ect. ect. |
You don't make a convincing argument. Successful businesses just deal with their issues and do what it takes to succeed. In the world in which we live, nearly anything we want can be had almost instantaneously, by chosing it, paying for it, and taking it home. The notable exception is production of new pedal steel guitars, many of which are still being built in a "hobby-shop" environment.
Fortunately, some pedal steel manufacturers, notably Carter and MSA, have discovered ways to break through the mystique and produce top quality, built-to-order instruments, in a very reasonable month or so. They obviously understand that waiting years for the "privilege" of taking possession of a new pedal steel guitar is unacceptable to many people - and, they've shown that it's also unnecessary.
Last edited by Dave Potter on 21 Mar 2007 3:55 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Dave Potter
From:
Texas
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 5:00 pm
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| Doug Earnest wrote: |
| Another thing is that the machine shops don't just drop everything they are doing to produce your run of 500 parts or so. They are more interested in doing runs of 50,000 parts, and rightfully so. The builders are somewhat at the mercy of their suppliers in many cases. And then if the parts aren't made correctly, you get to wait again...You about need your own CNC machine. Has anyone priced one lately??? |
We're talking about the multi-year lead-time some steel builders require. Carter and MSA deliver in a couple of months, MAX. Ask them how they deal with their "50,000 parts" production runs...being facetious, of course. They have no need for "50,000" parts at a time. |
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Ben Godard
From:
Jamesville NC
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 5:12 pm
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The builders are somewhat at the mercy of their suppliers in many cases. And then if the parts aren't made correctly, you get to wait again...You about need your own CNC machine. Has anyone priced one lately???
I work for a machine tool distributor in Charlotte NC called J&H Machine Tools I am in in the service dept. We sell Mori Seiki lathes and mills. These are the best machines money can buy. Anyone who operates Mori Seiki's will tell you that. If anyone is interested in CNC Lathes or Mills, then you can reach us at (704)545-7362. Ask for sales. |
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John DeBoalt
From:
Harrisville New York USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 7:07 pm
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So much depends on the arrangements the builder makes with his suppliers. The builder may need 360 pieces of a particular part a year. He can set up delivery with his supplier for 60 parts every 2 months or what ever makes sense for his operation. The supplier may elect to run all the parts in one set up, and stock them to be released when required. Longer runs being more economical for a machine shop. If the builder is using a reliable CNC machining house, the buyer, as well as the builder wins in the end. The end customer will receive a reliable guitar with fewer mechanical flaws. The builder will be able to produce his instruments in a more economical manner, not having to deal with parts that do not quite meet his specifications. His own delivery performance can be improved, probably increasing his customer base.
John |
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Damir Besic
From:
Nashville,TN.
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2007 7:22 pm
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I think the key here is that some companies like MSA, Carter, Mullen and maybe others have chosen to hire employees in order to be able to produce more instruments while others have chosen to go the "one man shop" route. One is not necessarily better than the other unless you happen to be in a hurry for a new guitar. If you are, there are companies who will oblige you.
Dad always said it was a lot easier to worry about one man making a living than it was ten (right after he let all of his helpers go). |
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of the steel guitars,IMHO