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Topic: C- Flat??????? |
Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 5:48 am |
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OK, so I'm perusing the Patsy Cline songbook, looking at the chord set to "It wasn't God who made Honky Tonk Angels", noticing the similarity in taste and touch to several other tunes, whenst I see this guitar chord called Cb (i.e. C-Flat). C-Flat? My guitar don't have no C flat fret... It's got a B... but no C-flat...
What is the story here and why do they write it this way???
Thanks all |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 6:05 am
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In the realm of the "musically correct," there are times when "C flat" would be a proper term. It's the enharmonic of "B." It has also been called "A##." It's technical mumbo jumbo that most of us in the day to day musical world don't pay much attention to.
It is not wrong, and never has been. String and horn players are more prone to have to deal with such notations.
_________________
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Music hath the charm to soothe a savage beast, but I'd try a 10mm first.
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 6:26 am
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Ray,
I'm going to take wild guess that the song was set in G-flat major. Yes? Cb is the fourth chord in G-flat major, not B-natural. That way you can distinguish between the "B" chord in the key (B-flat minor) and the "C" chord (C-flat major).
Every major scale will represent the seven letter names once, and only once, before reaching the octave and starting over again. Thus:
A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A
or
Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab
or(!)
Gb-Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F-Gb
or (!!)
C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#-C#
In minor keys Cb and Fb are even more common. As Michael pointed out it's just another way of indicating the same pitch as B in order to make it fit the scale of the prevailing key. Not really any different from the use of Eb and D# to indicate the same pitch.
If you thing of chords by their function (using whatever number system you like) the use of things like Cb and E# can be very helpful. On the other hand, if for practical purposes Cb just gets in the way and B-natural is easier to deal with, nothing wrong with that.
Dan
_________________
Durham, NH
dbmCk mUSIC |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 6:28 am
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| So if I play a "B" chord then and there, everything is one with the world? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 6:32 am
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The scale in the key of Gb has 6 flats:
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
If you called the note "B", then two notes of the scale would have to share the same line on the staff, making it harder to read. As it is, you can ignore all of the flats and just play the song in G.
The key of F# has a similar problem:
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 6:34 am
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| Quote: |
| So if I play a "B" chord then and there, everything is one with the world? |
Well,
I suppose some hard-core tuning freaks might argue otherwise. I know violinists et al tune enharmonic notes slightly differently, depending on the function of the pitch within its scale. But that isn't really an issue I suppose with our steel bar so, IMHO, yes: everything will be one with the world.
(On the other hand, Ray, if the sky falls in the next 10 minutes I'm blaming it on you and your dang B-natural chord!!)
Dan |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 7:53 am
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You can have some fun with these terms at times. Sometimes when I'm with a band and get a request for Steel Guitar Rag I'll call out the key of F-flat... You'd be surprised at how many musicians start counting frets or just having a dazed look on their faces. I remember years ago seeing Joe Maphis at a personal appearance getting a request for Wildwood Flower and calling out the key of B sharp. The band went nuts for a moment and then he said "OK, we'll go ahead and do it in C"........JH in Va.
_________________
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!! |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 8:40 am
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| Anonymous wrote: |
In appearance, you should always B sharp.
In pitch, you should never B flat.
But above all, your performance should always B natural! |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 10:51 am
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Thanks all... I really appreciate the info. Now I'm gonna go flail away at B and see if it fits  |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 7:42 pm
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| Dan and b0b have mostly explained it. Michael D. is pulling your leg a little. It is not really a matter of being overly "correct," nor is it mumbo jumbo. It is in fact the only way standard written notation can work; but you might not realize that if you don't read much music in Gb or F#. Remember that the flats or sharps in the key signature do not appear next to the note on the staff throughout the piece. They have to be remembered from the key signature at the beginning of the piece. So the Bb will be written as a note on the B line of the staff, with no flat symbol. And the Cb will be a note on the C space, also with no flat symbol. This is the reason each letter name can only be used once in the scale, because each letter name corresponds to a line or space on the staff. You can't have two notes of the scale appear on the same line or space. One could designate the Cb as B with a natural symbol, which would keep it from being confused with the Bb that appears on the B line. But such symbols in the music internally are only used for the non-scale, chromatic, or accidentals that are between the scale notes. So from the standpoint of reading written music, it all makes perfect sense. It is only when you are calling out chords, or writing them out separate from the staff and the key signature that it seems wierd. |
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Michael Douchette
From:
Gallatin, TN (deceased)
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 12 Mar 2007 9:43 pm
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Just don't ask for a Cbm7b5. Most "real" musicians don't know that chord. You have to call it "C flat half diminished" instead.
_________________
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2007 2:21 am
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Au contraire Bob: I thought that was the "Tristan chord." Actually, "real" musicians know it by both names (just as they can both read AND play by ear).
JUST KIDDING!! Down boys! Down!! Flame throwers back in holsters, please. Step away from the mouse. Step away from the mouse.
Dan |
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Ray Minich
From:
Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra
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Posted 13 Mar 2007 6:02 am
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| Quote: |
| Remember that the flats or sharps in the key signature do not appear next to the note on the staff throughout the piece. They have to be remembered from the key signature at the beginning of the piece |
Yes, from 4th grade, Sister Gertrude, maybe I deliberately forgot that because of... |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2007 9:53 am
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b0b. Us "real" musicians call it both and know both ways to write it.  You will see it either -7b5 used or just a circle with a diagonal line through it. I personally think that the "half dim" and the circle with the diagonal line came about as "short hand" to reduce the number of words and symbols. Same as the "delta" sign used for Maj7 chords.
I personally prefer the old -7b5 usage. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2007 11:04 am
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| Dan Beller-McKenna wrote: |
Au contraire Bob: I thought that was the "Tristan chord." Actually, "real" musicians know it by both names (just as they can both read AND play by ear).
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Here is the Tristan chord, the very fist chord you hear in Tristan und Isolde.
The notes are
G#
D#
B
F
It is enharmonically equivalent (meaning the same notes on the piano) to F minor 7 flat 5, but it doesn't resolve like Fm7-5 would. An Fm7-5 would typically be used as a 2 or II chord in E flat minor, and would resolve to Bb7 and Ebm. This would be a 2-5-1 progression.
But this chord resolves to E7 ! And the E7, if it resolved, would go to A minor. So, it is a 2-5-1 progression in A minor, and the Tristan chord is a B chord. It is in second inversion, with the (flatted) fifth in the bass, AKA six-four chord for you figured bass guys. Not only is the fifth flatted, but the seventh is diminished to G#, and it goes up to A at the end of the bar, before progressing to E7-5 then E7.
This can lead to what the pop music guys call "tritone substitution", in which a dominant chord can be substituted for the dominant chord whose root is a tritone away (F7 for B7). Of course, F7-5 is enharmonically equivalent to B7-5. So from that perspective, the Tristan chord could be seen as an altered F7-5 in root position. |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2007 1:16 pm
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All I know and this is
FACT!!!! If I play in C and You play in A, You'll B flat no doubt whatsoever. |
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