S-10 C6

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

I never thought I would. But I'm considering going to a Pedal guitar. I'm really not at all interested in the E9 Nashville stuff at all, though. Would it be possible to get a single C6 neck? Is there a pretty much standard copedant for C6? How to proceed? How much money to expect to spend? I've heard that C6 pedal players don't use alot of pedal. Many C6 pedal players seem to be abandoning pedal guitars altogether. Is it even worth doing?

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Ed,Forumite Larry Allen has an inredible Sho-Bud S-10 C6th sitting in his office in Anchorage,The last time I saked him he said that he wanted to sell it.It's A Blonde one...email me if you want Larry's info...Stu
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Dale Lee · From: Down Yonder

I have wondered about this too. I am strictly amateur with about one year of trying to learn C6 non-pedal. I have wondered whether transitioning to pedal (if I ever try to) would be any easier on pedal C6 after starting on NP C6. Can anyone offer any insight about this?

Something must be un-natural about it, because I have read the forum a lot and havn't seen anyone say they play a S-10 C6.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

The basic C6th copedent is 5 pedals and from 1 to 4 knee levers. Most S-10 guitars only have 3 pedals, and they have 4 or 5 knee levers. This makes setting one up a bit of a challenge, but people have done it.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video

Larry Allen · From: Kapaa, Kauai,Hawaii

ED..I have a mid-60's S-10 C6 Sho-Bud 5/2 in Excellent condition. This is one of the nicest Sho-Buds I have seen. I can e-mail you pictures if you are interested. I bought it to get into C6 but ended up with an extended set-up on my E9 guitars. The guitar is natural blond, restored by Jeff Surrett at Duane Marrs a few years ago and has very low mileage. I paid $1900 for it and will sell it for the same. The case is new........Larry Smile

Dale Lee · From: Down Yonder

bOb,

Thanks. Thats helpful information but it provokes another ignorant question: I have read that on E9 a lot of the standard licks are played with a couple of pedals and one knee. Is that true on the C6 copedant? i.e. does (can) a lot of playing take place with less than the full five pedals & 1-4 knees? Or, with C6 are more of the pedals used all the time?

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

Dale your 5 and 6 pedals are your "home" pedals, sort of like your a and b pedals.

Cartwright Thompson · Posted 25 Feb 2007 3:53 pm

I think you could get away with 4 pedals and 3 knees, you'd get about 90% of the C6 repertoire.

A. J. Schobert · From: Cincinnati, Ohio,

Edward if you are serious I would try to get rid of a couple pedals and have extra knees, at least go down to 3 or 4 pedals and I would think it would be easier to navigate.

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

wow, I was just thinking about trying to post the C6th set up I have on an E9th guitar.....as b0b said it's a challenge. In 1973 I was playing a screwy S12 C6th in Superior WI. Les Swanson liked my idea of the S12.....he had just ordered a MSA D10. He told me he wished he'd met me a bit sooner. In Winnie Winston's book I saw a set up Weldon Myric was using with the standard C6th p7 on a knee. I tried it & have used it ever since (bad habit by now!)
We later put it on Les' MSA, but he didn't go so far as to give up
P7. I have my set up on an Excel spreadsheet....will that post here??

Dave Zirbel · From: Sebastopol, CA USA

Do you play 8 or 10 string non pedal C6? I saw an old Multichord pedal steel at Tall Taod Music in Petaluma yesterday. I think it had 8 strings and 4 pedals. Didn't see the price. Might be worth checking out just to experiment. I've been threatening to set up a S-10 I have to a C6 or B6. I bought it thinking I would add knee levers and make an E9. It has 5 pedals and 1 knee. Perfect for a 6th tuning.

You certainly don't need pedals to play good C6. Bobby Black has been playing a 12 string non pedal lately and gets more out of that than I get with 12 string, 7 pedals and 6 knee levers.

DZ
_________________
Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps

Gary Ball · From: Lapwai, Idaho, USA

Very interesting subject. Keep it going guys.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Hi. This is one man's opinion.
I learned on C6 no pedals. Then to a T8 Stringmaster.

I was always curious about pedal steel. So I searched around and found what I think is perfect for me. A 12 string Universal tuned Bb6/Eb9. If the flats bother you, tune it B6/E9, or C6/F9.
B6 string layout on this guitar's middle 8 strings, is the basic 6th tuning. When I saw that, man I was hooked. I could always play the 6th tuning on 8 strings just like always.
From that comfortable setup, I branched out and learned more about the pedals and knees. Whenever I got stuck I could fall right back into the 6th tuning.
From there, it is one knee lever away from the 9th tuning and the NAshville sound.
I hope this does not scare you away. The 6th tuning that you know is right there, all the time. So consider a Universal tuned B6/E9 with 8 and 5. You could get by with 7 and 5.

There is an article here on the Forum about the Universal Direction, written by Maurice Anderson.

Dale Lee · From: Down Yonder

Thanks, ya'll. I am learning a little from this. I started trying to learn NP because I thought it would be easier to get started on than pedals. Now after working on it for a while I am starting to suspect that pedals might not be any harder (to some elementary level of skill - and believe me I am pretty elementary to this point.) I guess I was wondering if some basic C6 pedal sounds can be done with only two or three of the pedals since I am starting to get used to the intervals on my current tuning. I am worried that having to work 5 pedals would overwhelm me.

David Doggett · Posted 25 Feb 2007 8:46 pm

Dale, all the older generation pedal C6 players started on C6 before pedals were added in the late '50s. Also, most people who get their first D10 pedal steel with a C6 neck, or their first 12-string universal, start by learning to play the 6th neck without pedals. Then they gradually learn to use the pedals one at a time. So you are already set for that typical pathway. Almost all pedal 6th neck instruction materials start with no pedals and gradually add the pedals. With good instruction matrial such as Jeff Newman's, you would not be overwhelmed by the pedals at all.

Getting a 12-string universal is not a bad idea at all. You can buy one new or used (they are regularly for sale here on the Forum). They all come with all the pedals and levers you need to get started, so you would not have to add anything. One would probably cost the same or less that buying an S10 E9 and converting it. The whole C6 neck is there (but as B6 or Bb6), and you can ignore the extra two strings if you want to. A 6 & 4 uni has all the essentials. The C6 pedal 4 is redundant with the E9 pedals and is usually left off, and pedal 6 (the most commonly used one) is on a knee lever. So you have all the 6th neck essentials on an off-the-shelf uni, and you get the added bonus of the entire E9 neck and pedals if you ever want to try that out. And later, a uni will be easier to sell or trade than an S10 C6.

It makes some difference what type of music you are interested in. Pedal C6 was developed for Western Swing. Plenty of top swing players had no pedals. The bare minimum 6th neck pedals and levers (say 5 & 1 on a single neck; 3 & 2 dedicated to the 6th neck on a uni) will go a long way for Western swing. But guys who want to go beyond Western swing to modern jazz usually want a fully loaded instrument, with say 5 & 5 dedicated to the 6th neck. While that may seem overwhelming, again, with proper instruction you would learn that one pedal and lever at a time and not be overwhelmed. But if you only want to play Western swing, you might not need the expense and extra weight of a fully loaded instrument.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I had Carter build me a S10 C6th guitar because I am more interested in the kinds of music being played on it than on E9th, and I wanted to concentrate on learning one tuning well - I still practice six-string (and work on reading & writing skills) about 3 hours a day, and there's only so much time. I started with 5 pedals and 4 knees, and recently added another knee and changed a conventional pedal (P4 on a double) over to what is usually a lever function.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=103462

(Edited 2/27: the changes I posted in the above post are my variants from the "standard", Buddy Emmons C6th tuning below, I have all the other stuff from that too)

All of my levers and knees are important to me; when they say that C6th players use pedals less than E9th players, I think it relates to the fact that the "traditional E9th" pedal steel licks are made using moving bar and pedal combinations, whereas most C6th players usually use their changes to get at different tunings - it's like having a five or six neck non-pedal guitar. There's so much crossover I'll probably get yelled at for even saying that - it's so convenient to get to a 4 or 5 chord with the pedals you'd be dim not to. People like Doug Jernigan use their pedals integrally within C6th licks, and people like Randy Beavers play "C6th style" on an E9th. I think even some experienced players have trouble figuring out what neck Paul Franklin is playing certain things on, because he uses unusual changes, he "plays the song not the tuning", and I suspect he even sort of likes to confuse it up a bit. Cool

You can always buy what initially seems like way too many pedals and levers and not use them right away; I think the record for a single neck is up to, like, 20 pedals and 12 knees? And the guy really needed them all.... Smile

The closest there is to a standard tuning is probably the "Buddy Emmons' C6th" here:

http://b0b.com/tunings/stars.html#C6be
The P4 on that is usually the first one to mutate into wierdness, then whew... some guys have a box full of parts and (seemingly) change their tuning as often as their underwear (I haven't fully researched that, nor do I intend to Shocked

).

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

I guess Shobud made quite a few S-10 C6th guitars. I have a Baldwin Bud that's a C6th with 6 and 2.

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

I'm not ready to buy a guitar yet. I have just begun considering this. I think I'll look at some of the above mentioned instructional material to start with. Thanks for all your responses. I'd love to read any more that y'all have.

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

The late Harry Hesse had an S-10 C6 Fessenden - there is a picture of him with it on the Fessenden website. I suspect Jerry would be happy to make another. It sounds like a neat idea to me.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

It's not hard for someone who knows what they're doing to convert a reasonably modern guitar from E9th to C6th. If you start with an E9th 3 pedal, 4 knee lever guitar ("3+4"), you can just buy two more pedal kits ($200?) and end up with a "5+4" C6th. Get the new pedals with long rods to put all the way over at the left, and move the current E9th pedals over to the right - you can always make the connecting rods longer but not shorter, and you can use the leftover long rods to retinker the knees.

There are certain kinds of older guitars that are much harder to convert in this way, and to get parts for - if you buy a used guitar made by a company no longer in existence, obviously you'd need either fabricated or adapted parts. I don't think Bobbe Seymour wants you sawing away underneath an old beater Bigsby anyway.... Shocked

Scott Howard · From: Georgetown, TN, USA

Before I bought a Williams crossover, I took a S-10 Sho-Bud 3 x 2 and made it a C-6th. My problem is I can't move the left leg far enough to get the normal C 6 th pedals on a double neck or Universal without pain.It work fine and I could play most of the material I have.
I now have 2 single MSA-12 strings. One has the E9th side of the universal the other with the B 6th . I set it up with pedal 8,5,6, on the floor pedal 7 RKL and standard C 6 th knee on RKR .Having played on a Universal some remove pedal 4 but I have it on LKL . This gets the basic 6 th tuning.This is also what I put on the Sho-Bud , without pedal 4 because I only had 2 knee's . Maybe not for some but it works for me .

Jim Cohen · From: Philadelphia, PA

FWIW, I have an older Excel S-10 with 3+4 that I had converted over to C6. I left off the P8 changes and put P7 on one of the KLs, so my 3 pedals now are the stock P4, P5, P6, and my KLs are stock P7, plus raising and lowering the A's, and lowering 3rd string C to B.

Edward Meisse · From: Santa Rosa, California, USA

Well, I expect to have the money for a guitar this year. But I won't buy a new one. In fact, given what I'm currently doing, the old 8 string Fenders and Multikords look like the best bet for me. And as someone else pointed out, they may be inexpensive entry level instruments.
In any event, it is very unlikely that I would spring for a brand new instrument. I could get the best car I've ever owned for that kind of money. But when all is said and done, I may be on the lookout for a used C6 S10 in good shape. I'll have to see how things play out. But I do hope to do it this year. Mr. Green

_________________
Amor vincit omnia

Forum Index > Pedal Steel	Goto page 1, 2 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic