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Topic: Hawaiian Licks - paying homage or "inbreeding"? |
Mat Rhodes
From:
Lexington, KY, USA
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Posted 18 May 2006 12:20 pm |
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I'm going to touch on what I hope is NOT a sensitive subject: licks. Especially those I'm hearing in more of the contemporary Hawaiian recordings lately. I don't know who the players are, but the ones on a few songs that I hear online that actually have steel in them seem to be using phrases that I've heard several times elsewhere in songs by other artists. I've even gone to some lengths to transcribe some of these "signature phrases" and it's rare that I don't hear at least a few of them repeated by different players in different songs.
So here's my question. Is the mindset different on the Islands in that playing these licks is more like paying tribute to the original artists like Sol Ho'opi'i, etc.? Or is it just that the tried and true works better and is expected by the bandmates?
I know that on the mainland, copping licks from a well-known player seems kind of frowned upon by your peers if you're doing original music. But then again, audience members usually don't know the difference anyway.
Matt
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 18 May 2006 3:22 pm
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| A lot of us revere tradition much more than innovation. Touting the individual is a haole idea. Hawaiian culture is much more community oriented. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 19 May 2006 2:00 am
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I don't know a lot about the Hawaiian culture, but I think that the "Hula Lick" and it's MANY variations are part of the art of Hawaiian Guitar in a similar way to the ornamentation's used in 'Sean-nos' singing in the Celtic world.
Without the hula licks, Slack Key ( Ki ho'alu ) would just be another finger-picking folk style with little or no identity.
IMHO the 'Hula Licks" used as turnarounds in both trad. and Hapa Haole tunes probably originates from the early slack key players, but maybe Jeff has the definitive on that one ?
They are just as much a part of the 'Signature Sound' as the overly used octave glissando. Again IMHO.
See :- http://www.comhaltas.com/education/Treoir/2004Tr1/amhran.htm [This message was edited by basilh on 19 May 2006 at 03:01 AM.] |
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Derrick Mau
From:
Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 19 May 2006 4:33 am
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| Quote: |
| on the mainland, copping licks from a well known player seems kind of frowned upon by peers |
But it is still being done time and time again. If you've ever been to any of the steel conventions, you'll hear people copying licks from Dick McIntire, Jules Ah See, Jerry Byrd, amd all the other greats.
Even a Master player like Jerry copied licks from the Hawaiian players when switching from Country to Hawaiian. Nothing wrong with this . . . it's all part of the learning process.
The same thing is happening with other types of music with everyone copying licks from Jimmy Hendricks, Van Halen, Jimmy Page, Stevie Ray Vaughan, B.B. King. Copying has been going on for decades.
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| is the mindset different on the islands in that playing these licks is more like paying tribute to the original artist |
In my opinion, I don't believe the steel players in Hawaii copy licks to pay tribute to anyone. For Hawaiian Steel Guitar, there is material such as tablature for solo playing but none that I have seen showing how to do licks and fills when back up a singer. All we have for reference is what's recorded on vinyl or CD. The Hawaiian Steel players of the past were so good, it's difficult to better what has already been done.
Great thread Matt! 
[This message was edited by Derrick Mau on 19 May 2006 at 05:34 AM.] |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 19 May 2006 4:49 am
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| There are only so many notes to go around. I often find myself having to use some of them more than once. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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AJ Azure
From:
Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 19 May 2006 5:02 am
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Does it matter is a better question. Copying a lick is a time honored exercise. Classical masters copied masters before them. John Williams quots famous classical pieces ALL the time.
All music is a cop of another music. It's what you qadd to it that counts but, there's nothign wrong with adding old in for familiarity. I have never heard of anyone frowning on leanring someone else's licks. That's the basis of musical tuition.
One can innovate and tribute at the same time.[This message was edited by AJ Azure on 19 May 2006 at 06:03 AM.] |
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 19 May 2006 6:46 am
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Playing those hula vamps is one of the great joys of my life. I just get such a kick out it.
I'm serious! |
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 19 May 2006 6:47 am
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Nothing wrong with learning someone else's licks, but nothing evolves without change; on the other hand some things shouldn't evolve or they die. For example I still love primitive blues music, but when is the last time you heard anyone playing it? it is mostly all electric, and the players that get recognized are valued for technical ability more than traditional style. I feel like something was lost with all the early bluesmen.
Maybe Hawaiian music has managed to avoid losing it's spiritual quality by retaining certain parts of it's repertoire as core "values", for lack of a better word. |
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Mat Rhodes
From:
Lexington, KY, USA
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Posted 19 May 2006 9:01 am
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Thanks for the insight, guys. Especially yours, Jeff. I've read time & time again in some of the Hawaii-based magazines that there are continued efforts to preserve most elements of the original culture and I had a feeling that the arena of music is no different. The increase of sales and marketing for chant-oriented CDs is evidence of this.
Gerald, here's my favorite Hawaiian singer's link:
http://www.raiateahelm.com/sweet.htm
These songs aren't original; you'll have to go to Mountain Apple Record Company's site to listen to original music. Even then, you'll find yourself waiting to hear any steel guitar but I remember hearing some steel on some of Dennis Pavao's songs and those are what made me start this thread.
http://www.mountainapplecompany.com/Content59.aspx
Casey Olsen does an awesome job on Raiatea Helm's CD and it was his licks and tone that inspired me to transcribe them. I judge most of the new Hawaiian albums by this standard. Click on "Ka Loke Polena" and "Hu'i E". They're very brief, but recognizable. I'll admit that "Ka Loke Polena" has a slight variation, but you'll know where it comes from. There are a lot more like this on the CD but you have to buy it to hear it. 
Matt[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 19 May 2006 at 10:21 AM.] |
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Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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Posted 19 May 2006 9:25 am
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Good thread.
Western Swing, Country (both early and modern), heavy metal, zydeco, hip-hop, be-bop, Hawaiian -- all genres have their identifiable "standard" vocabulary and sentence structures. Gerald mentioned blues and bluegrass, two of the biggest in propagating their respective traditions, IMO.
It's the subtle things that separate one artist to the next with each genre. I guess style would be the best way to describe it. A different tone, a different way of phrasing, dynamics, etc. All these make one artist unique, while still staying within the genre, and implementing traditional vocabulary with other new ideas.
Andy Iona and Dick McIntire played Hawaiian steel at the same time in history, yet if we're familiar with their respective and unique styles, we can hear a recording we've never heard before of one of them, and know who it is. Same goes for instrumentalists in a lot of other genres.
Just IMO... YMMV!
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Todd James Weger --
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, A6, B11); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Regal resonator (C6); 1938 Epiphone Electar (A6); assorted ukuleles; upright bass
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Frank Welsh
From:
Upstate New York, USA
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Posted 19 May 2006 3:21 pm
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Even classical music uses "licks" that came from earlier works. I think the imitation of earlier or other contemporary artists acts as a "glue" that unites generations of players.
Imitation is how most learning takes place. It is up to the individual to eventually develop their own "spin" on the interpretation of the music. I believe all art forms are like this.
When was there ever a generation of artists that were 100% original in their expression?
Remember that, for many audiences today, the "old" music expressions so familiar to us are actually new to them and could be a refreshing relief from the soulless noise that dominates most of popular music today, entirely devoid of romance and even melody. |
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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 19 May 2006 6:44 pm
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| Casey is one of the smoothest Hawaiian players today. However, I'd have to say his work on Raiatea's album is very "outside"--a lot of it molded by the arranger, Ken Makuakane, in my opinion thee most tasteless jawaiian-inspired arranger of our time. |
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Don Barnhardt
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 May 2006 7:30 pm
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| I listen to all kinds of music and when I hear something I like I'll incorporate it into my playing. Don't see anything wrong with that. I've always liked Hawaiian music but I don't consider it sacred and if I hear something that will fit in with what I happen to be playing I'll use it. |
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c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
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Posted 20 May 2006 2:48 am
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| Amen Jeff. cc |
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