Is "IT" in the hands....or inherent tone!

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

During the recent changing of the forum format, the thread link below was inexplicably lost. I appreciate Bobby Lee offering a link which allows access to the entire thread. His doing so provides the opportunity for this thread to continue to be read as well as placed in the archives for future reference.

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum15/HTML/013756.html

I began my original thread by asking the question:….”Is it possible to consistently identify a “sound/tone signature” which is unique and exclusive to any specific name brand of pedal steel guitar manufactured in the past 40 years?”

Most share my opinion that consistent recognition of an inherent tone signature in any specific brand name guitar is not possible. There are of course those who are convinced differently, and some who simply wish to believe otherwise.

I believe many would find it to be interesting and enlightening if they were to get together with other steel players and make sound/tone comparisons of different brands of guitars. Were they to do so and post their findings, it could be enlightening to the steel guitar community. Doing so could also present a broader consensus which will eventually provide a conclusion to this question which has been discussed and debated within the steel guitar world for decades.

For those who would wish to make the comparisons, I have provided my list of basic guidelines which I believe most would agree upon in order to make fair comparisons.

1.There should be at least three different brand name guitars used.
2.The guitars should all be the same cabinet configuration. (double necks, single necks, or those with a pad)
3.They should all have the same amount of strings.
4.The same tuning should be used during all comparisons. (preferably the E9th since it is the tuning most played)
5.Each guitar should have new strings, pulled up to pitch, and the pedals and knee levers painstakingly tuned by the same person.
6.Each guitar is to be played through the same amp, using the same volume pedal and plug in cords. (To compensate for any guitar which has a pickup with unusual highs or lows, the amp controls may be slightly manipulated no more than two numbers, while the volume controls remains constant)
7.The one who is making comparisons may select whomever they wish to play.
8.The one making the comparison should have their back turned, be blindfolded, or on the other side of a partition.
9.There should be an observer behind the partition with the player, and as each guitar is played, the observer will write the name of the guitar in the sequence in which it was played, while the listener does the same.
10.The player should play the same notes as closely as possible when playing all guitars. Minimum use of pedals and knee levers is suggested because pedal noise and pedal and lever pitch references may vary if one goes even slightly out of tune, which could influence the listener and possibly provide a false conclusion.
11.The player may play the same guitar until the listener identifies what they believe to be the guitar being played and asks the player to go to the next guitar.
12.The player then has the option to chose any other guitar, OR, the same guitar again.
13.When the comparison is concluded the observer will compare their sequence list with the list made by the listener.
14.It is suggested 10 comparisons be made in each sound comparison. The probability of one being a “good guesser” must be considered when conducting such comparisons.

I believe it to be fair to include that if an inherent tone were to be consistently identified, the person who done so would identify themselves and agree to participate in future comparisons in which they may again demonstrate their ability to do so under like conditions.

I’m sure there are other conditions I didn’t list which some believe should be considered as comparison parameters, but of course they may be added and agreed upon at the time of the comparisons. The above list is only basic parameters which I believe most will agree upon.

I hope there will be those who will make the comparisons and share their findings. If no comparison tests are posted, as for me personally, and many others as well, the conclusion would then be…..it is not possible to consistently identify any specific brand name guitar, therefore “the inherent tone myth will at last be busted”.

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

The more I read, the more I think it's all in my mind.
(That, and my maple MSA.)

But I hope someone takes up your challenge.
The aspect that interests me would be results that raise questions/comparisons regarding subjective and empirical conclusions. Do the technical findings match the subjective comparisons?

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Sometimes it's kind of hard to tell.

Wink

EJL

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I think there are so many factors involved that there's no single answer.

My 3 MSA guitars (one dieboard/mica, one maple/lacquer, and the Millennium) all sound different, even with all other factors like amp settings being the same.

But I can get lots of different tones from the same guitar by altering the amp settings or changing the patches on my new POD.

And of course, every player has a slightly different touch and gets a slightly different tone no matter what guitar they are using.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

It takes good hands to bring out the inherant tone. One needs the other.

Rick Nicklas · From: Verona, Mo. (deceased)

I personally think the inherent tone would be from the pickup. It's just like the heart. The body of the steel provides the mechanics and abilities to alter the pitches of the notes. And the amplifier would be the mouth. We have the ability to work on the range, color and presence at that point, but I think the tone is generated by the type of pickup and to some extent how it is mounted. (That being said, My steel had a heart transplant with a Jerry Wallace TT and it has never sounded better).

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Its inherent in the brand of guitar. Thats why Emmons guitars sound so great.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I like Sho~Buds, hands down.

I could tell one anywhere.

Wink

EJL

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I have a 66 Emmons bolt on, Franklin and Rains:

http://bobhoffnar.blogspot.com/2006/08/germany.html

Lets see if this works.

The pickups on the Rains and Franklin are the Tonealigner humbuckers that I build and the Emmons has a stock single coil on it. Hilton volume pedal straight into a 70's princeton.

I took just a couple minutes to do this last april for a guy in Germany so forgive the sloppy playing.

OK, I just checked it and the name of the steel is in the url unless I can figure out how to get to it. So don't cheat you rascals !
_________________
Bob

Jimmie Martin · From: Ohio, USA

oh no not again. Rolling Eyes

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Yeah Jimmie, thats what I was thinking. Do we have to be dragged through this again?

Bill Miller · From: Gaspe, Quebec, Canada

This does come up pretty often doesn't it? Still, it would interesting to see the results of a blind comparison such Reece Anderson describes. No doubt most forumites have more knowledge and experience than me, but this is one topic that I made up my mind on long ago and no one will change it. Both the hands and the gear play a big role in determining tone.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

It's unfortunate there may be those who feel they are being dragged through the tone subject, although we all know, no one is forced to read a thread or take part.

Those who express that opinon are quite possibly some of the ones I mentioned who "simply wish to believe otherwise" because they are comfortable in believing the tone of their guitar is unique only to the brand they are playing, and they don't want to risk of it being proven otherwise.

Jim S....If you will read my post again you will not find where a time limit was mentioned for anyone who wishes to make the comparisons.

I fully expected it to take a long time for posts to be made by those who made comparisons, partly because the burden of proof is not on those who believe as I do, it would be on those who believe otherwise, and those who believe otherwise are not anxious to make the comparisons for obvious reasons.

Some of the ones who agree with me named themselves within my original thread, so you can verify their identities for yourself.

My "proclamations" as you so call them, are based on over 30 years of seeing many make the comparison test only to realize the futility. The truth is, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying I have never seen it done. Perhaps you are the exception.

I may be coming out your way in the near future, and if so possibly you would care to take the comparison test yourself.

I would have hoped your last comment would have been beneath your dignity.

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Bob, I listened to your tone comparison and the Emmons one is quite significantly "darker" than the rest. Perhaps down the road you could equal it out by installing one of your new pickups on that guitar too. That would help level out the comparison. The Rains and the Franklin sound very close.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

John,
I'll try again when I have a free afternoon. Next time I won't leave any hints and bring a couple different brands into the mix.

This experiment is a fun one. Its also is a good excuse to get together with steel playing friends.

If this thread becomes too polluted I'll post a test somewhere else. There were a couple of other "What steel is it" tests before I think. Randy Beavers, Jim Cohen and Ricky Davis did something if I remember right.

Bob
_________________
Bob

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Here's another thought. Several builders are using cabinets made by Mark Giles. So assuming Mark makes them all similarly, even though the changers and undercarriages will be different, wouldn't the inherent resonance of the cabinet be the same, regardless of brand name?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think it's a good idea to suggest listening experiments. Critical listening is good for musicians, and that's all this is about. This could be fun, and does not have to be a contest.

Bob H. - I noticed the Emmons being richer and darker also, but it was, of course, impossible to not notice the file titles, so even though I tried to not use the information, I'm not sure that's possible. That's why the double blind aspect is so critical in testing like this. I agree that the Rains and Franklin sounded similar, with the Franklin possibly sounding a bit more present, for lack of a better word. But it would be very hard to argue that wasn't due to some small difference in the picking or some other small variable. I thought they had very similar tonal signatures.

I think it's likely that if one takes a guitar of a significantly different design and plays just exactly the same way with everything set the same, a sharp-eared and experienced listener may well notice a difference. That, in itself, does not contradict the hypothesis that, to a large extent, "tone is in the hands", because it may be possible to adjust something else - in the hands - to more closely equalize the tonal signature if one wants to. If one sets up the experiment so that experienced players try to make them sound the same - now that might shed light on that question.

So - I think it matters a lot to specify what the goal of testing is. Is it to see if there is an inherent "nominal" tone in the instrument, or is it to see if it's possible for an experienced player to control the tone even if there are differences in inherent "nominal" tone? Maybe people are interested in both of these issues.

One other thing - I think if the goal is to try to distinguish between the "inherent, nominal" tone in various guitars, one must use the same pickups, set the same on each guitar. There is an electronic interaction between the pickup and the volume pedal, effects, and/or input section of the amp that can significantly change the sound. But - if the goal is seeing if it's possible to control the tone with the hands, then this is not so critical - by hypothesis, the goal is to see if "nominal" differences can be overcome by an experienced player.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Some have said that we have been down that road (tone) many times; so to spice this thread up, I will play devil’s advocate re the proposed tests, and offer experimental evidence re the subject of instrument recognition as a function of “perceived” tone.

Assuming that we can agree on the “tone” being the result of the vibrations of the strings and instrument as interpreted by the pickup and subsequent controls, strings, bars, picks, style of picking, cables, amplifier circuits, speakers, room and the location of the listener, the listener’s specific hearing ability, et al, it would seem that any search for “inherent tone” begin as close to the source, and in as simple an excitation manner as possible. Right out of the pickup, without the volume pedal or other electrical loads, and into an instrumentation amplifier with a high input impedance (meg ohms), and profiled as frequency component vs. time, while exciting the open strings at a constant place (12th fret for openers) with a rake of a simple thumb pick used in a repeatable manner.

Second best might be allowing the 500K pot volume pedal, with no cable out to the amp etc, as this is probably the simplest common pickup load. Loading the pickup changes it’s frequency response as it is an electrical filter.

In either case, we are left with the variables of pickup electrical differences, pickup location along the neck, pickup separation, from the strings, string quality, scale length, body/mechanism resonances, and such. All such things would tend to make a given instrument perform differently, even from itself, depending upon the tightness of various screws, age and type of strings etc.

In comparative testing, the principle of minimizing the variables is generally accepted. I would suggest that it is possible to reduce the number of variables in Reece’s proposed test. If sufficient common variables are allowed, then more instruments will sound alike…the fewer the common variables allowed, the more the quality of the instruments sound will come through.

If tested per Reece’s outline, Reece will win, except for a few possibly out of adjustment instruments, and they will not be recognizable by brand. Below is an example of two Sho Buds…the difference is huge. Compare these to an Emmons PP owned by Jay Dee Maness = chart #27 on the PHOTOBUCKET url at the bottom, so you will know that it is “up to snuff”. This data is from a session at Jim Palenscar’s North County Steel Guitar shop in Oceanside Ca.

For those that might want to view more evidence/test results for a variety of PSG’s, and JAY DEE's #27 chart, go to:
http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/edpackard/?start=all and have fun.

All of these tests were done on the same day, by the same person. All related physical and impedance (actually resistance) measurements were taken the same day and by the same person. All tests used the instrument “as it was found” on the sales floor.

In summation, you might be able to tell one instrument from another in Reece’s proposed test, but identifying the brand/model of the instrument is highly improbable…with maybe a very few exceptions.

C. Christofferson · Posted 11 Feb 2007 11:34 am

***

custom steel / recordings

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

This is getting ridiculous.

I'll start here I guess..

The Reason?

I am against discouragement of newer players of the instrument, and although Mr Sliff, for example is a longtime musician and guitar player, he has said that he is a newer steel player. I don't know him. (Nor could I recognize any of the people on the thread so far from any recordings that come to my mind, and I've been listening to country music for 53 years, and playing Steel for 30+, even at the pain of beheading with a dull knife) .

I believe that there might be others that are beginning to be discouraged as well.

After reading all this horsehockey, after thirty years of active live paid playing, I'm thinking that my playing guitar for forty plus years is something that I should have been doing more of all along. For the myriad of players, any small group of them seems to claim less authority over low level players.

OK.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

One test worth trying is to play different guitars unplugged and check out their acoustic properties. I just did this with my maple body and my Millennium. (My mica guitar is in the garage at the bottom of the hill and i didn't feel like dragging it up the stairs to the house.)

The acoustic sounds of the guitars pretty much matches their electric sounds. the wood guitar as a deeper and slightly warmer sound while the millennium has a brighter sound and much better string separation. The wood body sounds slightly muddy when compared to the Millennium which has a much cleaner sound.

These are very subtle differences, but you can definately hear them when you compare the 2 side by side. And they occur both when plugged in and unplugged.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

One thing's for sure - you ain't going to get the "Mythbusters" involved in this one! Maybe someone (not me) will have to rent a room at one of the convention hotels, and run experiments for the whole convention. That would be a sight - a bunch of old guys who blasted the heck out of one or both of their ears decades ago on on the stages of a thousand honky-tonks coming to blows over which guitar was behind the curtain.

The last guy standing could perform the miraculous listening feat to an enthralled Sunday Morning crowd!

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

(spits green tea over keyboard yet again....)

Yes Mr P, but would you travel to Dallas, give a demonstration, and be cloistered in the Ed Packard Los Alamos Sonic Testing facility , (formerly the Amazon.com Book Warehouse)(just kidding ed Smile

) for the required length of time, including retesting, and changed parameters, and parking with a hundred steel guitar manufacturers...

to validate your opinion?

Smile

EJL

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