12th Street Rag, theories

Kevin Brown · From: England

Just 're-heard' 12th street rag Sol Hoopii after 20 years and blown away (electric version, thanks Bas)
Can we nail the tuning and position of 1st verse licks, once I get going I'll have a crack at it, might take a few years but a nice challenge

basilh · From: United Kingdom

It was recorded in 1938, so be aware that at that time eight string guitars were popular and twin neck steels were not unheard of.

Also Take into consideration that Sool Ho'opi'i was considered to be part of the top echelon, and as such MAY have used the latest developments in the studio whilst retaining the mystique of live SIX string playing.

Players at that time (1930's) were very protective of their own personal tunings.

A definitive source from someone who was actually at the session has yet to be found, so his tuning(s) number of strings and even the number of guitars on any given tune from those 1938 recordings is simply guesswork.

There was a previous discussion here http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/005027.html

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basilh · From: United Kingdom

Further to the above, the 8 string or twin necked guitar theory.
Roy Smeck in 1926 recorded with an 8 string acoustic guitar called an 'Octachorda"

The Sol recording was made on December 15th 1938 in Los Angeles. The Decca designation DLA = Los Angeles.

At that time on the west coast the steel guitar fraternity had players like Bernie Kaii who played 8 string, Danny Stewart, Bob Nichols and many more, all of whom were aware of the latest development in guitars and tunings.
It therefore seem most likely that Sol would be at least 'Up to Speed'
Personally I go for the two guitars or twin neck probability, because of the almost certainty that the first part and the variation of it (up a third) were played on E6th (E - C# - B - G# ..) Whereas the chordal soloing probably uses C#m7 ( E - C# - G# - E - B - E).

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Mac McKenzie · From: Auckland, New Zealand * R.I.P.

Was 12th. St. Rag Sol's last recording?

The way I was taught to play those triplet notes was to pick with the forefinger and reverse flick with the tip of the pick then the thumb on the next note. It is the only way to get those fast " fire picking " runs up the strings too - crisp and clear.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I disagree with the notion that 8 strings were used, as with a little ingenuity and practice all the licks are easily achieved with 6 strings tuned to C#m7. I play it all the time. You can hear Sol sliding around on that chromatic lick with the wide intervallic jumps (if this is the lick you're talking about).

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Bud Tutmarc was a personal friend of Sol's and has alot of information about Sol.

Roger

Kevin Brown · From: England

Thanks chaps, Mike I think Basil also suggested c sharp minor 7th, would you be kind enough to remind me of the tuning (sorry bas i lost my notes) and could you guide me as to where YOU play the notes on 1st verse.
Utterly gratefull as usual, really enjoyed both your video clips Mike and Bas

basilh · From: United Kingdom

It isn't the ACOUSTIC version we're analysing but this one 12th Street Rag

We aren't just discussing the 'Lick' but the whole performance on the December 15th recording.
The low octave section indicates that the bottom 3 strings are E -B - E. The chord solo indicates that the top 3 are E - C# - G#. But the second part of the melody where he plays the melody as a harmony a 3rd higher would indicate the tuning of E - C# - B - G# on the first four strings.
AND Finally, if main melody is played using the OPEN E string on the second note, how is it that the main melody is played an octave higher in the section after the fast quaver triplet run from open E to the octave on string 1.?

[This message was edited by basilh on 26 April 2006 at 01:22 PM.]

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Kevin,
C#m7 six string =
E
C#
G#
E
B
E

E6th Eight String=
E
C#
B
G#
E
B
G#
E

I Use E13th
E
C#
B
G#
E
D
B
E

There is also the possibility That Sol sometimes used a variation of the Iona tuning F#9th

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Baz, I was talking about the same version. I believe it is played on 6 strings. I play it on 6 and if I can, anyone can.

I would tab it out, but I really don't have any extra time to do it.

Brad Bechtel · From: San Francisco, CA

Here's an earlier discussion of this same song, with Craig Prior's transcription still available in PDF format.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Mac McKenzie · From: Auckland, New Zealand * R.I.P.

Silly me - I hooked onto the other thread that Basil gave, read the problems that others were having and tried to help. But it came out on the present thread - 2006 - not the 2004 that I was reading. Another lesson.
I e-mailed one of our Association members who was one of Sol's pupils, his wife was one of Sol's personal friends and it was in this way that they met. He replied that he never knew Sol to play on anything other than a single neck lap steel and when they came out used a 6 string bakelite Rick., C# minor tuning, top to bass - E C# G# E B E. When we were young and learning the steel, it was all done by ear and I was not the only one who could play 12th. St. Rag note for note with the record.It took a long time but we did help each other and once it was achieved the techniques were used on other songs. My teacher told me that he had read that when Sol was asked about 8 strings, he replied that there was so much research to be done on 6 strings another two would not help. Our member said too, that no matter what he was doing, or where he was, everything stopped while Sol would listen to Joaquin Murphy on the radio and commented that you could not keep up with that guy, he changes his tuning every week. Jerry commented that he thought Sol was too razz -a-ma-tazz and that he could not get those triplet notes as his strings were too close together.Over years, music does change and it would seem that Sol did everything on 6 strings and if people have trouble with trying to learn what he did, remember how much Jerry did on 6 and can we find and copy? The thinking changes too, the sounds, the moods and Jerry's Remington Ride, down by the nut to use open strings could be leading people to think 12th. St. Rag was done the same way and this has lead to the problems they are having. Remember too, Sol used the "split chord" technique to effect a true chord. As Jerry said, " it is all there for you to find - good luck."

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Kevin Brown · From: England

That is such a wonderfull reply and very inspiring, Im on the road now for 4 days, I'm gonna play it in the car and let it swim around the brain for a while , a bit like Murphey lying on his bed soaking up jazz lick (as if !)

Andy Volk · From: Boston, MA

The timbre and tone sound like a 6-string Bakelite Ric to my ear. I don't recall ever seeing any photos of Sol with a double neck ... just the Ric or a Dickerson.

Joaquin digs Sol and appropriates some of his licks .... Sol later drops everything to listen to Joaquin ... wonderful story.

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I don't doubt that one bit about Joaquino. He was truly in a class of his own, and I don't think I've heard anyone who was as exciting an improvisor on steel (except maybe King Benny, who I love, and those secret JB tapes--well Buddy Emmons, too). Too bad he wasn't playing better music, but that's just my wishful thinking. Much as I love all those old records, I wish he had been in a position to do something like Alvino Rey was doing.

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www.mikeneer.com

Mike Neer on MySpace

HowardR · From: N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville

That's a good point.

I would love to hear Joaquin's version of "12 Street Rag."

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

Anna, Sols widow told me he played it on a 6 strg Rick. Bud Tutmarc has that guitar and brung it to Winchester one yr. It was extremely hot so Sol must have done some cutomizing. I was running the amps that yr and the pre was on 3.5 and post on 4. When Bud played Sols guitar I had to put the pre on 2 and the post 2.8. CC

Mike Neer · From: NJ

I liken Joaquin playing with Spade Cooley to Bix playing with Whiteman. It was good but....

basilh · From: United Kingdom

Hi CC, I probably am wrong with my assumptions about the number of strings etc, BUT one thing I know for sure, even if Anna was a steel player, and unless she was at the recording session (Which she was not) she could only speculate as to what guitar Sol used. The debate about the Rick 'Panda that Freddies wife says Freddie bought in 1935 would lend credence to my supposition.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Baz, would you mind telling me the exact locations on the track which are in question?

I'd also like to add that he does a strum at 1:57. It may not include the 6th string, but the others are there.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 27 April 2006 at 05:34 PM.]

Mike Neer · From: NJ

If I'm understanding you correctly about the melody being played as a 3rd, that whole section is only played on the first 2 strings. You can hear all the slides if you slow it down.

basilh · From: United Kingdom

The melody 'up a third' section is A G F etc.. are you saying he plays that as fret 5 then 3 on the first string and then 4 on the second string ?

Mike, after I've got the current recording session finished,(Hopefully by Sunday) I'll make a video of the parts I mean and post it.
I'm probably NOT hearing the movements the same way as others do, possibly because in my mind I visualise everything I hear, into the E6, and relate any note I hear to a position within that framework..

[This message was edited by basilh on 28 April 2006 at 01:57 AM.]

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Baz, In that section he's playing A-Ab-F, followed by G-Gb-E, so on the fretboard it would read (1)17-16-(2)16 (the number in parens being the string).

When he gets to the main melody an octave higher, he plays it (1)13-12-(2)13.

He also does a lightning fast triplet run down lower where he uses the notes Ab-G-E (1)4-3-0. It's very deceptive--the E is almost masquerading as an F, but he damps it quickly enough to make it almost undetectable.

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