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Topic: Fender Princeton/Deluxe Reverb for lap steel? new or old |
James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 10:23 am |
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Has anyone tried one of these?
How do the new fender amps sound? I know they went through a crappy period. How are they these days?
The attenuater is very tempting.
Are the Princeton's known to be great lap steel amps? For clean or dirty or both? How do they sound compared to a Deluxe Reverb? |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 4:08 pm
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I recently had the great displeasure of hearing this new recording Princeton at a local guitar shop. Absolutely and completely disappointing. The more you attenuated, the worse it got. I've got Princetons and Deluxes, and this amp really didn't deliver anything we liked at all. The store's salesman was cursing loudly at the thing. He yelled out "why the f did we order this piece of s". No kidding. It was that bad. I'll admit, I wasn't the one playing guitar thru it and turning the knobs, I was merely an onlooker and listener. I clearly noticed that the tone was far from spectacular. If you want a quiet amp with great tone, get a Champ or the like. If you want the sound of a Princeton, then I'd recommend a real one. A real Princeton sounds great for lap steel. So does a real Deluxe.
_________________
Brad Sarno
'82 Emmons S-10 push/pull, Revelation Tube Preamp, Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cab, V8 Octal Tube Preamp, Ganz Straight Ahead power amp - JBL D130 |
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Hiro Keitora
From:
New York, New York
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Posted 14 Jan 2007 6:08 pm
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I can't agree more, Brad.
<H> |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 1:06 am
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| thanks guys, that's what I needed to hear. |
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David Anderson
From:
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 1:08 am
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| I played it,and was not impressed... |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 7:18 am
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Hey guys. How good does the Champ sound? I'm not that worried about power as my amps are always mic'ed on stage. Purely in terms of tone, how good is it? Does it sound like one of it's bigger brothers (Twin, Deluxe, Princeton)? I've got an outboard reverb tank so I'm not worried about that either.
Are there certain year models that should be avoided? How much is the right price for one? |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 7:43 am
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James.
The Champ sounds great, but it does run out of power real quick. The Princeton may be just right for you. The Princeton actually has a very fat, big, Fendery tone, just not that powerful, roughly 12 watts. But the way it's tone section is scooped out, you pretty much have the voicing of the larger amps like a Twin, but in a small box with a 10". If you run it clean, the Princeton nails that big, clean, Fender sound. Great for lap steel.
_________________
Brad Sarno
'82 Emmons S-10 push/pull, Revelation Tube Preamp, Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cab, V8 Octal Tube Preamp, Ganz Straight Ahead power amp - JBL D130 |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 11:09 am
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James,
I bought 2 blackface Vibro-Champs.... dirt cheap, because both had been cut out for 10" speakers.... which somewhat reduced the collectability factor. I use the 2 Champs as a pair with a Radial Switchbone to split the steel signal. This is a great setup for "acoustic" type gigs and recording. The stock 8" speaker might not do it for you.... so be prepared to mod or maybe build a cab for a bigger speaker.... I have a SF Vibro-Champ that was cut down to a head.... sometimes I use it with a 12" or 15" cab.... Champ with a 15 is always cool.... |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 11:15 am
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"I have a SF Vibro...."
What does "SF" mean?
I'm always curious to compare these amps to their Pod Models. I have a Pod but haven't tried a lot of classic amps yet. |
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David Anderson
From:
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 1:16 pm
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Sf stands for "silver face". These are CBS era amps and have a pretty brite, notched tone.
I have a friend who uses a blackface Princeton with 12" speaker instead of a 10, and it sounds great. The 12 pulls a little more power from the amp, and has a great clean tone for smaller gigs. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 1:16 pm
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James,
"SF" stands for Silverface, when the knob plate or "face" on Fender amps changed from black to silver in 1968. The model name on the face also changed from script to blue lettering at this time.
*Edit: replied same time as David. 
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 3:44 pm
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Next question: What is a "notched" tone?
Which are considered higher quality, Black or Sliver faced? |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 7:29 pm
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Notched tone usually refers to a scooped out midrange.....
Blackface Fenders are considered more desirable by most guitar players... better build quality, earlier breakup, cooler looking.... etc.
The early SF (68-69) amps are nearly the same as the BF amps and are generally highly regarded until about 74 or so when CBS started making lots of changes in components and wiring. The late SF amps 78-79 are considered the worst of the lot... these amps featured a pull for boost knob, master volume, and ultarlinear transformers.
All of these judgements are highly subjective, of course, and vary with the different amps... generally, the lower wattage amps were messed with the least. The Champs don't really change all that much... Princetons are pretty good until the pull for boost addition... Deluxes are pretty great until 73 or so.
All but the very last SF amps can be rewired back to BF specs.
I own SF amps that are great for steel, that I don't care for as six string guitar amps and vice versa... I have a 64 Deluxe Reverb that I really like on both and a 73 Deluxe Reverb that is a close second.....so you kinda have to check 'em out and see what you like.
Champs of all eras have been used on a lot of classic rock and blues recordings... not a typical choice for pedal steel.... great for lap....do a bit of research...... |
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David Anderson
From:
St. Louis, MO, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2007 7:49 pm
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| Notched meaning less mid frequency. Black face is more sought after than silver face due to the fact that it is pre CBS. Early silver face amps are pretty much the same as last year black face circuitry. Usually a good way to get into a Black face tone for less money. Tweed amps typically have more pronounced mids. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2007 5:20 pm
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| Quote: |
| Deluxes are pretty great until 73 or so. |
A widely spread misconception.
About the only thing that changed on Deluxe Reverbs was the addition of the pull-boost...and as long as you left it alone, it was benign (there were other minor changhes, but they had no sonic effect). Late-70's Deluxe Reverbs are THE player amp as far as Deluxes go, as with the right tubes and biasing and a good speaker they sound every bit as good as a BF.
We've done many blind listening tests of SF and BF Deluxes of diffrent types, and nobody could ever pick out a BF...or SF...consistently.
The Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reverb and Champ/Vibro Champ are great buys in silverface Fenders, as there WAS no "crappy period", ever.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2007 6:57 pm
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Jim,
There are some issues with post '73 Deluxe Reverbs.... lead dress and the quality of some components. They can be sorted out by a competent technician. Most of them sound good as is, but some have noticable deficiencies. As you said, the pull boost is not a problem if it isn't used..... and the small SF amps are great bargains.
I also believe that the cabinet construction and 5U4 rectifier in the SF series was a factor in the general lesser opinion of them........
I own a 64 and a 73... I like 'em both, but the 64, to my ears and other pretty good ears, has something extra.
Last edited by mike nolan on 18 Jan 2007 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2007 9:07 pm
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| I think my modded Silverface Princeton Reverb is about as good as a Fender gets. It now puts out 20 watts through a 12" Celestion speaker, Allen power Xformer, Dr. Z output Xformer. A few other mods. Great Fender reverb, and great trem (no roach), and it fits on the passenger side floor. I've got a whole slew of old Fenders, but this one is a real workhorse! Hi Jim. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 18 Jan 2007 6:22 am
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Just a note. Bothe the blackface amps and the silverface amps have that same "notched" or dipped midrange voicing. No changes were made from the blackface era to the silverface era in that regard. The smaller tweed amps did not have the midrange dip, hence more mids.
Brad
_________________
Brad Sarno
'82 Emmons S-10 push/pull, Revelation Tube Preamp, Furlong SPLIT powered speaker cab, V8 Octal Tube Preamp, Ganz Straight Ahead power amp - JBL D130 |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Jan 2007 7:49 pm
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I'm building a Princeton Reverb, with a Hoffman type turret board. It also has some mods. I will be using a 12 " speaker.
Just got the output trans today, the rest is finished. I'll probably buy a cab for it from Weber, and maybe a Weber speaker. I just finished a Tweed Deluxe, 5E3, with a Weber speaker, and it sounds quite nice. I have only played thru an old Princeton Reverb once, and don't remember how it sounded.
BILL |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2007 12:23 pm
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| Quote: |
| here are some issues with post '73 Deluxe Reverbs.... lead dress and the quality of some components. |
That and the cabinet differences are certainly correct...but the point is that really nothing is gained sonically by changing any of it. this has been discussed on amp forums and newsgroups for years, and the consensus is: 1) yes, you can do a blackface conversion on a Deluxe Reverb or Princeton Reverb, and 2) you are FAR better off just havin ght eSF serviced, put good tubes in it, and use a good speaker. The "BF" changes make essentally undetectable sound changes, on the other hand.
So while there are plenty of techs who will take your money to "blckface" a Deluxe reverb, a reputable one will advise you not to waste your money and instead have the amp fully serviced (filter and bias caps replaced and bypass caps checked), good NOS tubes installed, a good speaker installed (the stock ones, except the CTS ceramics, are usually pretty weak), have the amp biased around 30ma to start and then dialed-in for the "sweet spot"...and then play it. While all amps are different, mix 10 BF and 10 SF Deluxe Reverbs, all serviced and set up like described, play through them at random and the SF's will sound as good as the BF's///and some will sound better than some of the BF's.
I've done BF conversions (among other amp work) for years, and will refuse any BF conversion on a Deluxe Reverb. I won't take people's money for uneccesary work.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 30 Jan 2007 9:16 am
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| Do any of you guys have one of these, set up for steel, that you wish to sell? |
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