| Author |
Topic: Tuning of 4-neck Instruments |
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 28 Jan 2007 11:07 am |
|
I've always been curious as to the need for 4 necks, and I wondered if anyone tuned them to be played together.
For instance, if you tuned one neck to open C, a second to open F, the third to open G, and the fourth to open Amin, you could play in every key with a minimum of bar movement, by moving back and forth between the necks. |
|
|
 |
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 28 Jan 2007 12:21 pm
|
|
| Alan, that's exactly what I do, EXCEPT I don't use those particular tunings, and Instead of many necks, I have pedals that achieve the same result. |
|
|
|
Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2007 2:43 pm
|
|
| This is possible but very difficult. Try it some time. Every time you lift or raise the bar, it's going to make some unwanted noise, and intonation is very difficult not to mention your arms getting tired from all the switching. |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 28 Jan 2007 3:17 pm
|
|
| basilh wrote: |
| ...Instead of many necks, I have pedals that achieve the same result. |
Then I need to rethink the copedants from square one. I've been looking at it as an exercise in logic. For instance, in the key of C you can get away with C, C7, F, G, G7, Amin, Emin, Dmin, D7, and that covers most songs. With regular guitar tuning you can get all these chords without your fingers going past the second fret. Since a steel guitar's pedals can easily stretch a tone, there must be a tuning which gives you all the relevant chords on just the pedals. I think the problem is lack of feet. To whit, if you tuned a pedal steel guitar like a regular guitar, and had a pedal for each string, you could get all the chords with just the pedals. Unfortunately, most chords on the guitar use three fingers, and you only have two feet.
I've recently bought two Multi-Kords, which I'm told can be retuned and re-pedalled easily, and I'm going to be doing some experiments with copedants. It would be nice to have an open chord, to push just one pedal and get the subdominant, and another to get the dominant, then a third to get the relative minor. |
|
|
|
Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
|
Posted 28 Jan 2007 4:47 pm
|
|
As a non-pedal person by past experience, I've been trying to come to the same conclusions on the pedal instrument. You mentioned that a guitarist could get all the chords without his fingers going past the second fret. Actually, I think you meant the third fret. In any case, I think it unreasonable to try to get every one of the chords mentioned with just using pedals. You should at least consider using the bar up to the third fret, since your guitar example included the third fret. For instance why can't you use a bar at the 2nd fret to get the dominant once you've got the sub-dominant with a pedal? Similarly, why not use the bar at the second fret to get the II chords, Dmin, D7 in your examples.
Where I'm having troubles in this quest is in dealing with the "avoid strings", or the strings to NOT play when getting the additional chords using pedals. As a non-pedaller, I'm looking for "strum chords". |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 29 Jan 2007 1:40 am
|
|
We've got to be careful here because the discussion is veering towards a subject that belongs in 'Pedal Steel'.
BUT, as a for instance and to clarify MY thinking re pedal guitar. On a regular guitar at the third fret :- G Eb C would be the prime chords available, along with minors ninths and other extensions also. With the copedent I've developed and used for the past 45 years, I get the very same chords and inversions (In THE SAME POSITIONS), and if you notice the three prime chord inversions can easily translate to the E, A and C type tunings i.e. root on to, third on to and fifth on top. That's another reason why I think the C6 tuning with a high G is negating the relevance of what it was ORIGINALLY (the tuning to compliment the other two basic ones)
Just my slant on the subject.
Initially a three necked guitar would have been tuned with the three main chord INVERSIONS or variations of such, so a four necked steel was tuned similarly and a set of BARITONE strings added on the fourth neck in most circumstances. A typical example would be the factory standard Fender Stringmaster Quad. Unless ordered as a custom set-up, it left the factory as :- E13 (E on top) C6 (E on top) A6 (E on top) and A6 LOW (the same but down an octave)
{When I say on top, I'm referring to the top note of the open tuning, I'm sure the old timers will understand, but just to clarify the terminology for the youngsters out there} |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 29 Jan 2007 5:43 pm
|
|
| basilh wrote: |
| With the copedent I've developed and used for the past 45 years, I get the very same chords and inversions (In THE SAME POSITIONS |
What copedant is that ? I'd like to try it out. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 29 Jan 2007 6:26 pm
|
|
If you have the capability of a knee lever and/or a half stop .. Take the third and 7th strings to up a half step to A#
This change GREATLY increases the range of chords. |
|
|
|
Marty Smith
From:
California
|
Posted 29 Jan 2007 10:10 pm
|
|
I play a four neck and I neck hop a lot to change thing up a bit and make difrent solos. I play the melody on a 6th then switch to 13th for solo. etc
Marty
1. F#m
2.E13
3.A6th w/ 2 out of seq diso'nit strings on the bottom
4.C6th |
|
|
|
Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
|
Posted 30 Jan 2007 1:20 am
|
|
| Wouldn't a non-pedal D10 solve a lot of these problems without having to resort to pedals? I know the weight changes but just the same, those four extra strings gives you a whole new world of chord possibilities. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 30 Jan 2007 2:26 am
|
|
Les, you say
| Quote: |
| without having to resort to pedals? |
The inference is that it would be the least desirable, as in "To resort To" etc.
as though it was a "Way out" or a lesser alternative, to be looked down upon and derided. Not so, it's quite possible to play using pedals as a substitute for the necks that would be out of reach on a eight or ten necked instrument.
Pedals CAN be utilised as an EXTENSION of the capabilities of the console steel, not necessarily using the well know Bud Isaacs paradigm.
Jules Ah See, Billy Hew Len and many others used pedals on their recordings, and in the process took Hawaiian Style Steel Guitar to it's next level. So much of the "Signature Sound of Hawaii" as perceived around the world, is actually pedal and non pedal guitar together, on records by Webley Edwards Hawaii Calls. et al.
I personally have met "Dyed in the Wool" lap steel protagonists who have been fooled for years by the Likes of the Alfred Apaka album cuts. |
|
|
|
Bill McRoberts
From:
Janesville, Wisconsin USA
|
Posted 30 Jan 2007 7:23 am
|
|
I play a Q-8 using the same technique as Marty. Each tuning has it's own sound and tone. The A-6th has a much warmer or mellow tone as compared to the C-6th with is brighter. I use an E-13th with a high G# and a low E which also has a sound all its own with tons of brightness. The good thing about 4 necks is one always has room to experiment with different tunings.
1 B-11th
2 A-6th
3 C-6th high G
4 E-13th |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 30 Jan 2007 5:45 pm
|
|
| Thanks for the copedant, Basil, I'll check it out. |
|
|
|
Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
|
Posted 3 Feb 2007 4:05 pm 4 Neck steels and their tunings
|
|
Back in 1956, when I took delivery of my custom made BIGSBY quad with six pedals............
I was merely following a trend; Like Webb Pierces' "SLOWLY".
In those days, many of us wanted to duplicate the sound of leading steel players; to be able to play their instrumentals note for note, etc. The selection of tuning in many instances had nothing to do with playing the various necks as a multifacited unit but rather..........playing a bunch of tunes that the crowd wanted to hear...."JUST LIKE THE RECORD".
I had Paul set mine up with Speedy West on three necks; Bud Issacs on one neck; and of coure, JERRY BYRD, on the fourth neck.
It served me well for many decades. |
|
|
|
Brad Catler
From:
Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 4 Feb 2007 10:39 pm
|
|
| I use one of the necks on my Stringmaster Quad for tuning all the strings to the same note (E) in three different octaves, and play melodies with a lot of bar movement! Slanting the bar either forward or reverse gives a great out of phase sound. That's one of the nice things about having 4 necks. One neck is tuned to a diatonic tuning in 10 tone Equal Temperment, with a corresponding fret layout underneath. That sounds very interesting, also. All the notes except the tritone are quite different that 12 tone equal. In Cents; 000 120 240 360 480 600 720 840 960 1080 1200. New tones for the ears |
|
|
|
David Phillips
From:
San Francisco CA , USA
|
Posted 6 Feb 2007 4:39 pm
|
|
I am glad to have found this post as I have set up my 4 neck short scale Stringmaster for the first time in a decade.
I am considering tunings, string guages, which neck for which tuning.
Is there any rule of thumb about which neck for a specific tuning?
I am currently playing hawaiian and western swing (C6 & E13) and trying to be exclusively non pedal.
Who uses the or used bass tuning? |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 6 Feb 2007 5:07 pm
|
|
A seemingly good idea is to use the thickest neck for the tuning that uses the thinnest strings and vice versa.
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
|
|
|
Dan Sawyer
From:
Studio City, California, USA
|
Posted 7 Feb 2007 12:33 am
|
|
| Bradford, that's very interesting. Have you made any recordings? |
|
|
|
Brad Catler
From:
Massachusetts, USA
|
Posted 7 Feb 2007 8:37 am
|
|
Hey Dan,
I have a bunch of recordings available, but most of them are not on steel. I've never posted with computer yet but i will try to figure that out soon.
On a third neck on that thing i have a E 13th chord, but it's not what you might think. It's the first 13 Harmonics in the overtone series. Tonic, 3rd 5th b7th 9th 11th 13th and High octave E. This is a great way to start to hear these new intervals ( the pure 7th 11th and 13th harmonics) if you don't know them already. They take a bit to get used to, but they are so easily accesible on any string instrument all between the 2nd and 5 frets with harmonics, that it's a shame to ignore them. Why should we base our whole system on the lowly 5th harmonic, the major 3rd?
I know a bunch of you will say, " oh here's another egghead wackjob runnnin' numbers" but believe me , i know that if it ain't full of feelin' it don't mean &%#$. |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 1:33 am
|
|
| Bradford, did you ever get 'round to doing some recordings with that 13th tuning that has the 11th in it ?, I would be interested to hear what it/you can do. |
|
|
|
Dion Stephen
From:
Kansas, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 2:17 am
|
|
| please correct me if i'm wrong but isn't 1 of the sweet things about steels of any kind the wonderful sound of the slide from point A to B? i wrestle with the perfect tuning & still fall back to the sound of the slide, not that it is the only way but isn't that what makes steel the voice that it is? |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 2:48 am
|
|
| Yes, and ? |
|
|
|
Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 7:23 am
|
|
| Basil, It's pretty amazing all the tunings you can get with that copedant on your Fender. How long did it take you to come up with it? |
|
|
|
basilh
From:
United Kingdom
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 2:07 pm
|
|
Andy, it was a natural progressional development from my three neck non pedal to my 4 pedal Gibson EH-150 and then I got a Fender in 1965 and set about coming to grips with the limitations of the Fender single sharpen single flattening system.
By setting out the chords and tunings I wanted I made up a chart and ended up with the copedent I now use.
It took me about a week of experimenting with the positioning of the pedals as to which adjacent pairs would combine to make the most changes.
Also, bear in mind that I use BOTH feet on the pedals.
Using B11 on one neck and relying on the other neck for the varied tunings, I found I could get all that I needed at THAT point in time, but since then I've found that I need 1 more change to get a greater scope of chords, just a half step on the a strings. (The A's already have a whole step to B in the main copedent)
There are far more altered chords available in the standard 10 string C6 copedent, but those altered chords are used more for effect by steel players than in actual band orientated arrangements, so I have no need for the 7#9 and such.
I don't play blues or rock so I'm happy using substitutes where the actual sheet music chord isn't readily available.
As an example if I was in G and playing an E7 at the 7th fret using the A7 (open) tuning, I'd get the E aug by playing my pedals 4+5 (D9 open) at the 8th fret.Bb9 in the inversion I use is E7aug with a b9. It does work in passing, and most of my work is based on the utilization of 'Passing Chords' i.e. for two bars of a one seven chord I'd play one, five minor seven, one seven.
Music theory has never been my strong point but Bill Cox's ears and his daughter Pat, guided me along the right path melodically.
There are many chord types that can't be got using my particular copedent, but I've never encountered one that I couldn't get around one way or another, or in some cases substitute with a more melodic one. |
|
|
|
Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
|
Posted 11 Oct 2007 6:33 pm
|
|
Doesn't Herb Remington play a 10 string C6 pedal guitar using the pedals more in the Hawaiian Style as well as using alot of slants? I wonder what his copedant is?
_________________
Amor vincit omnia |
|
|
|
